Reader-Inspired Course Corrections From YMB

The willingness to listen with humility, to accept correction, and to engage in self-correction are qualities that I value. In that spirit, I’ve decided to imitate one of my favorite bloggers, Fabius Maximus, by doing an ongoing series of posts documenting instances (as they occur) where readers have either corrected my misconceptions or pointed out blind spots in my thinking. As I’ve always stressed, I’m definitely not any sort of guru, and I learn a lot from listening to the readers. Here’s the most recent reader-inspired course correction in my thinking―a reader named YMB pointed out something I had missed.

During a recent post, I said,

WHEN YOU’RE THE ONLY ONE DOING SOMETHING, THAT’S A CLUE THAT WHATEVER YOU’RE DOING IS NOT A GOOD IDEA

Here and at the previous blog, we’ve discussed a number of self-defeating behaviors that only African-American women engage in on a mass level:

. . . African-American women are alone on this planet in characterizing all romantic interest from men outside their racial group as a negative “fetish.” As I said during this post,

Faith, blog host of Acts Of Faith In Love And Life, is currently having an extremely important conversation. She’s raising points that need to be repeated among African-American women and girls who want to live well. And among those African-American women who want to maximize the odds of their future children living well. She asks the question, Are Asian Woman Trophy Wives, Or Just Smart At Picking Quality Husbands?

I would answer “both.” Yes, non-Asian men have stereotypes about Asian women. However, Asian women are shrewd enough to work those stereotypes to their individual (and indirectly to their collective) advantage! This is a lesson that more African-American women need to learn. We’re so preoccupied with issues of political correctness that we cut our own throats in terms of maximizing our marriage options. Nobody else operates like this. Certainly not Black men, including the many Pan-African Black male activists who talked “Black” this and that, and married White women. Including that scholar-hero of the ultra-Black, “Blacker than thou” crowd,

Cheikh Anta Diop (yep the very one considered one of the greatest African historians of the 20th century a senegalese) married Louise Marie Maes, a French woman in 1953 in Paris.

Many African-American women worry about nonblack men having a so-called “fetish” with the traits that these men find attractive. Let’s think about this for a moment. We’re actually bothered and offended when a nonblack man finds our West African-derived skin tones, features, and hair textures attractive. Why is it called a “fetish” if a nonblack man is able to appreciate Black women’s beauty? Meanwhile, we live among a collective of African-American men who are open about their hatred of those same West African complexions, features and hair textures in women! [See statements by creatures such as Yung Berg, NeYo, and so on. See statements and actions by countless other African-American men.]

And instead of calling these Black men the anti-Black racists that they are, we water down the language we use to describe what these racist Black males refer to as their “preferences.” So, there’s a post that asks, Does Hip Hop Like Light Skinned Girls Too Much? I need not say much more about how that question is being framed. It’s sort of like asking, “Does the Klan like white sheets and hoods too much?” In both cases, phrasing the question and the so-called “preference” that way deliberately misses the point.

Back to “fetishes.” Does it still count as a so-called “fetish” when the nonblack man is willing and eager to make a particular Black woman his wife first, and then the mother of his children? This type of “fetish” seems so much more respectful of the woman involved than a male who never offers marriage, and is willing to see his children by that woman born out of wedlock.

Instead of screening, dating, and possibly marrying nonblack men who might have a so-called “fetish” about their undiluted West African features that operates FOR them, many African-American women restrict themselves to dating Black men who have openly-declared fetishes that operate AGAINST them. How crazy is that?

YMB MENTIONED AN IMPORTANT POINT THAT I MISSED ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF BLACK WOMEN’S “FETISH” PARANOIA ABOUT NONBLACK MEN APPRECIATING THEIR BEAUTY

During this same conversation, YMB said:

I don’t think that BW concocted the whole “fetish” and “exotic” paranoia, although I think the lack of belief of our own worth and beauty is why so many BW have bought into that mindset. We are the only race of women that castigates rather than celebrates their uniqueness.

The “fetish” tactic was thought up by WW in an effort to tar and stifle WM’s noted interest in AW. The difference being that when AW were presented with this, they rejected it wholesale as a ploy to paint genuine attraction to non-white women as freakish and wrong and to block WM from elevating AW to the same status as WW. Meanwhile BW got the same message and thought, “he likes my kinky hair, brown skin, and African features– how unnatural!”

She’s right. This “fetish” talk was originally a weapon that White women forged to block Asian women’s access to marrying quality, “Alpha” White men. It was a real-world example of attempted “inception.” Asian women were smart and self-confident enough to turn that “fetish” idea to their own individual and collective advantage. Only African-American women (and similarly situated Western Black women) were mentally beaten down and silly enough to get caught in that worrying about a “fetish” snare. It’s yet another example of how easy it is for outsiders to successfully perform “inception” on African-Americans. As I mentioned during this post,

The pity is that, unlike in the movie, most African-Americans don’t have to be drugged to be vulnerable to inception. Simply hearing somebody else say something is enough to influence most of us.

ONE SAFEGUARD AGAINST INCEPTION IS TO ALWAYS ASK “CUI BONO?”

More African-American women must learn to constantly ask themselves the question: “Cui bono?” [“Who benefits?”]

Who benefits from the suggestion or argument that Person X is giving me? Now, it is possible to have win-win situations where Person X benefits along with Person Y with whom they’re speaking. But most African-American women are not presented with win-win sort of advice or political arguments. Usually it’s I Win, And You (African-American woman) Lose advice. Most African-American women are surrounded by people who are operating a zero-sum game—people who win when that Black woman loses.

So, we need to learn to constantly ask ourselves, “Cui bono?”

  • Who benefits from things (including my actions) remaining the same?
  • Who benefits from me making a change of some sort?
  • Who benefits from the arguments that are being presented to me?
  • Who benefits from the course of action being advocated?

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU PONDERED “CUI BONO”?

I’d like to hear from the audience about the most recent examples in which you thought through the question “Cui bono?” My most recent incident was during a previous conversation when I discussed the case of Ms. Kelley Williams-Bolar and said,

Non-African-American outsiders (such as the libertarians) who give verbal support to thieves like this woman usually have some sort of ideological axe to grind. They wouldn’t support this woman stealing the benefit of their property taxes. They don’t want this woman or her daughter reaping the benefit of the taxes they paid into their personal school districts. White libertarians verbally support this woman because they want to destroy the unions. They are supporting this woman’s thievery only as a means to an end (destroying unions).

Cultivating critical thinking skills can mean the difference between abundant life and a needlessly diminished life.

ADDENDUM

I forgot to mention the following:

IF THERE’S SOMETHING YOU WANT ME TO RETHINK, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO SEND ME SOME INFORMATION IN SUPPORT OF YOUR VIEWS

As you can see, at times I make course corrections in my views in response to readers’ input. I’ve never been in training to be Joseph Stalin. I prefer to focus the conversations on our own thought processes and actions, since those things are under our direct control as individuals. So, I’d rather not spend a lot of time rehashing what “they” (whoever “they” might be) are doing to “us.”

However, I am inviting audience members to use this and future Reader-Inspired Course Correction posts to raise other points (of disagreement or otherwise) that you want me to rethink and reconsider. This ties into my overall policy about dissent: I have no problem with dissent about the means that are suggested for achieving the goal of lifestyle optimization for African-American women and girls. However, I refuse to engage in lengthy discussions with people who are opposed to the very goal of lifestyle optimization for African-American women and girls. Of course, there’s no guarantee that I’ll change my mind; but I will consider all information that’s put forth.

PLEASE ALSO CONSIDER THIS AN “OPEN FORUM” OPPORTUNITY

This invitation doesn’t only include points of disagreement. Feel welcome to bring up issues you’d like to discuss that I haven’t talked about. Please consider these Reader-Inspired Course Correction posts as “open forum” posts.

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228 Responses to “Reader-Inspired Course Corrections From YMB”

  1. KimP says:

    I’ve always known this Khadija and I caution many of my loved ones to consider why is this person championing me? What do they stand to gain? Let’s face it, rarely do people lend their time, support and effort for anything unless there’s some sort of reciprocation, seen or unseen. As you said in many previous posts, “When people hate you, sometimes they’ll join you.”

    This is so great because I was thinking along these lines last night. I’ve noticed how WW and DBR BM hold similar defector views in regards to BW (or any non-White woman in WW’s case) dating and marrying WM. WW use the fetishism idea of course to keep WM and their resources to themselves and their families and so on.

    However, I find that many of the BM that employ the fetishism idea are supposedly “Good Black Men” who use this argument in the name of “Black Love” and “WM raped and assaulted their female ancestors” sentiments.

    What’s funny is that these men are the first ones to date WW, and what they won’t say is that as long as Pookie remains the lowlife trash he’s destined to be and BW don’t marry out, they’d want BW to believe they’re as good as it’s going to get.

    These men don’t care about “Black Love” because they’re loving up on WW, AW, HW, anyone but BW, and furthermore they certainly could careless about what ‘The Man’ did to your female ancestors. These men don’t want BW to date out because BW are their stepping stone. If more BW looked right past them AND Pookie right into the arms of WM, who would they step on then?

    Who would be left to clamor over these BM as if they’re some sort of rare commodity?

    Who would exalt them as “Kang?”

    Who’s going to do the ‘soldiering’ for the BC when they feel they need time off to be with their Non-BW and family?

    What’s even funnier, many of the WW I’ve come across who shout fetishism also date out (particularly BM), but it’s as if they shout fetishism because they know what they left behind and they don’t want anyone to enjoy what they don’t have, especially not a BW.

    Those are the most dangerous people on the face of the planet, forget the people who openly hate you because at least they’ve warned you. Those who destroy you by joining you are more dangerous because their duplicity is veiled behind a smile and support.

    • Faith Dow says:

      Can I mention that I’m writing an extended post on this very subject? I may need to break it up because it’s nearly 5000 words but this is something BW need to consider when moving forward. Along with the ramped up denigration coming from non-blacks (like the Pepsi ad during the Super Bowl that has so many angry for example) this is the response to the BWE messaging that’s getting out. More is coming.

      • KimP says:

        *Khadija I don’t know if this went through*

        I certainly can’t wait for your upcoming post, Faith!

        Yes, please do break it up in a series! 😉

        I do think many people are catching on to the BWE messaging. Fear has driven some to stoop to new lows to sling mud on the movement and ensure the message is muffled. It is deliberate, but BW need to remain steadfast, especially the Sojourners.

  2. KimP,

    You said, “Those are the most dangerous people on the face of the planet, forget the people who openly hate you because at least they’ve warned you. Those who destroy you by joining you are more dangerous because their duplicity is veiled behind a smile and support.”

    I totally agree.

    However, I don’t want this conversation to be focused on “them” (whichever set of “them” that might be mentioned—BM, WW, whoever). There’s NO rational reason for “them” to give up any advantages they might have scored for themselves.

    I want our focus to stay on ourselves, and on examining our own thought processes. Why is it that so many AA women NEVER seem to ask “Cui bono”?

    I want to know what’s THAT about…because if one bothers to ask the question “Who benefits?,” so many of these repeated scams that AA women have chosen to fall for become totally OBVIOUS.

    I don’t know…is it that we never ask “Cui bono” because we don’t want to face the reality that these others (BM, WW, whoever) DON’T have our best interests at heart? Is is that we don’t ask “Cui bono” because we don’t want to know that BM in particular view themselves as rivals of BW—and see their own intersts as being opposed to the interests of BW?

    I don’t know why so many AA women never ask “Cui bono”…maybe somebody can explain that to me…

    Correction: Hmmm…It occurs to me that I shouldn’t say that AA women “never” ask “Cui bono”…they know how to be suspicious of other BW (unfortunately, often with good reasons) and ask that question in relation to other BW.

    Expect Success!

    • Neecy says:

      K SAID:
      I don’t know…is it that we never ask “Cui bono” because we don’t want to face the reality that these others (BM, WW, whoever) DON’T have our best interests at heart? Is is that we don’t ask “Cui bono” because we don’t want to know that BM in particular view themselves as rivals of BW—and see their own intersts as being opposed to the interests of BW?

      NEECY:
      BINGO! I feel so many BW already feel defeated that acknowleding the reality that BM really don’t have our best interests at heart means its the end. Its the final nail in the coffin that shows that we as BW are standing on our own. So many BW want to believe we aren’t and that there is some calvary coming to save us and rescue us. Not happening anytime soon. So many BW do want to believe its the end. And they don’t want to believe that b/c they will have to go beyond their typical comfort zones.

  3. Natalie says:

    Hello Ms. Khadija

    I thank you for posting the important question of “Who Benefits/Cui Bono?” You mentioned “Cultivating critical thinking skills can mean the difference between abundant life and a needlessly diminished life.”

    I absolutely agree with your above statement because its very imperative that BW begin to apply critical thinking skills to get from point A to B which leads to making right decisions to implement so that their lives are more abundant. Critical thinking is the ability to focus your thinking in a constructive manner (NOT a DESTRUCTIVE MANNER such as baby making machine, man sharing, sole provider, miss go to gal for RESOURCES, mule to uplift backward thinking black community where the DBRBM are the ones benefiting and not reciprocating, defeminization of black women,and under the control of gaslighting) and to get the results you need, in essence its the most important factor whether you succeed or fail. Critical thinking overall is outcome focused thinking that is contextual (it changes depending on circumstances) and should be viewed from these perspectives such as

    Thinking Ahead: the ability to be proactive and anticipate what might happen and what you might do to be more prepared before encountering situations.

    Thinking in Action: the ability to think on your feet-rapid, dynamic reasoning that considers several cues and priorities at once. Thinking in action is highly influenced by previous experiences, more intuitive and prone to “kneejerk” responses and decisions than other types of thinking

    Thinking back(reflective thinking): the ability to think back over and analyze the reasoning process to identify assumptions, LOOK FOR FLAWS and omissions, gain better understanding, and correct and improve thinking. Thinking back brings new insights, more depth, and greater accuracy thus objectively identifying lessons learned from personal experiences.

    When starting to practice thinking in this type of constructive manner you will start to recognize the people, places, and things that are not for you and creating a climate/environment that fosters critical thinking helps just as well.

  4. Neecy says:

    In response to your questions. I myself am in the process of re-evaluating some people and things I supported whom i felt were in my best interest as a Black woman. On a personal level I don’t think i have ever asked myself this question. I am such a big thinker I tend to think of this on a more collective level with BW. Like who benefits off the constant portrayal of BW being seen as angry, violent and jealous? (see latest Pepsi commercial aired during superbowl). It bugs me.

    At what point do BW take a look within and say does doing XYZ put me in a favorable position as an individual? What am I going to get out of this? And if I am getting something out of what i am about to do or sacrifice myself and image for as a BW WORTH it? Is what i am doing pushing me forward? is it going to help another BW behind me push forward? i know a lot of BW don’t want that burden of carrying other BW. But I just can’t shake it. I think this way – the big picture.

    So having said all of that, i often have to ask myself does it benefit me to feel like carrying the burden of all BW? Should i soley be concerned with myself? This may seem silly but yes I think on that level. i care about how other BW are perceived and portrayed even if it doesn’t affect me directly. It bothers me so many BW offer themselves up even knowing deep down everyone else benefits EXCEPT us. Its almost as if BW believe by doing this its going to gain us favor with the very people who are benefiting at our expense. “if we just go along with it eventually it will work out on our behalf” is what i feel many BW think and say to themselves. At what point do BW just accept it and move away from the comfort zone of being the “mule, mammy”? Its okay for a BW to not be someones mule and stomping mat.

    We don’t live in a vaccum. its up to EVERY BW with her right mind to ask this question of herself. The more we realize that often times when we walk to the slaughterhouse many times that’s the end (for us). Others are doing the slaughtering and we are the only ones suffering.

    FEAR is what is holding so many BW back. Fear of change and letting go of old tired mottos and ways of doing things. FEAR of doing what is best for us b/c we have been so brainwashed to accept less than from everyone and for ourselves.

    I know, I’m rambling…….

  5. focusedpurpose says:

    hi Khadijah-

    i think quite a few bw are conditioned to NOT ask questions in general. i know i was. questioning teachings, beliefs, rules, etc was always viewed as being “difficult” as i was often labelled. lol. the negative labelling and the fear of it, helps to keep bw in the box that others have designed for bw to be in. when other folks determine your place, rarely is it in your best interest to be there, i have learned. it is much better to pick/determine your own spot.

    • Hi Sis,

      You said, “i think quite a few bw are conditioned to NOT ask questions in general. i know i was. questioning teachings, beliefs, rules, etc was always viewed as being “difficult” as i was often labelled. lol. the negative labelling and the fear of it, helps to keep bw in the box that others have designed for bw to be in.”

      I agree. And I can see how that’s a serious problem during one’s childhood. However, a grown woman ought to know that she does not have to share her inner thoughts and questions with everybody, or even anybody around her. Other people’s input is not required in order to do a SELF-benefit analysis of any given situation. As you know, whenever a woman recklessly and randomly shares her inner questions with the world at large, she gives the haters and users around her an opportunity to reinforce whatever brainwashing she might be struggling to resist.

      This gets back to AA women’s habit/emotional compulsion of oversharing personal information. Including oversharing of every single thought they have. Including oversharing all of the above with people who do NOT have their best interests at heart. This oversharing is totally unnecessary, and almost always backfires on the BW who overshares. Maybe Halima is right—and BW are doing all these things because they’re focused on getting emotional pats on the head (as opposed to actually advancing their own individual interests).

      Expect Success!

      • focusedpurpose says:

        amen! to your response.

        in my original comment, i was not advocating sharing every thought that was on one’s mind. of course this will prohibit the ability to move with stealth.

        i was simply noting that quite a few bw are conditioned to not ask questions or challenge notions that folks put before them.

        your response made me laugh out loud, because i have often joked when folks asked me what i was thinking, which i used to get alot; that i was thinking the thoughts God put on my mind. IF God wanted other folks to know He/She could put it on THEIR minds. LOL.

        great post Khadija. i am going back to read the rest of the comments. i learn a lot from you and the brilliant women that comment.

  6. halima says:

    Hi Khadija

    I feel to ask cui bono, you have to be ‘in the game’ of advancement itself. I dont know whether bw are in the game of social advancement, to any great extent anyway, because unlike others they dont seem to have an ‘agressive social advancement strategy’.

    as an aside I was saying to a freind the other day that it would be a disaster to pitch her product at bw, because though they clearly need it, they wouldnt know what to do with it thus respond to it, unlike other women who would immediately see how it would be employed in their advancement strategy.

    Many bw are in the game of ‘escapism’, ‘make me feel good’ (tell me lies tell me sweet little lies), ‘pat me on the head’, ‘give me a nice warm feeling out of this’, all as a result of being mistreated and body slammed day in day out. when such is the case, it becomes more about your feelings being ‘fluffed’ rather than pure rational self ineterst thinking.

    I now realize that having reasonable protection from family (my parents to their best ability created a conducive family atmosphere)has meant me being able to focus on the practical gain (Cui Bono) rather than just looking for the next ’emotional hit’ out of any and every interraction. indeed this ’emotional high’ seeking might clearly be because bw have never felt themselves being shown kindness overall so they irrationally focus on their feelings being ‘warmed’ in all interractions.

    I think this is one reason why many people shape their arguments to have the necessary emotional pulls on bw heartstrings, because bw seem to respond readily to all that even if they are ultimately being asked to destroy themselves.

    • Halima,

      You said, “I feel to ask cui bono, you have to be ‘in the game’ of advancement itself. I dont know whether bw are in the game of social advancement, to any great extent anyway, because unlike others they dont seem to have an ‘agressive social advancement strategy’.

      …Many bw are in the game of ‘escapism’, ‘make me feel good’ (tell me lies tell me sweet little lies), ‘pat me on the head’, ‘give me a nice warm feeling out of this’, all as a result of being mistreated and body slammed day in day out. when such is the case, it becomes more about your feelings being ‘fluffed’ rather than pure rational self ineterst thinking.”

      My goodness, that’s terrible. But true—it’s obvious that BW are pursuing something OTHER than their own self-advancement. It’s also apparent that BW are, for the most part, satisfied with verbal pats on the head. It’s all quite strange. Everybody else (including BM) naturally gravitates toward advancing their own individual interests.

      Expect Success!

  7. I think there’s another reason why some black women are concerned about white men with fetishes — we’ve met white men with fetishes and it’s not pretty. I think we have to be careful when we say there’s nothing wrong with men appreciating the unique features that AA women have. That is true, but only if it IS about liking black women and not about hating white women. In other words, “I really like your full lips.” Nothing wrong with that. OTOH, “I really like your full lips. So much better than white women’s skimpy lips.” That can be problematic and is informed by the same nonsense that black men spout when they proclaim their love for white women. If his compliments always involve putting someone else down, I would be concerned. Just like black men, that’s not about love for you, that’s about hatred for someone else. Moreover, in my experience at least, these men don’t just hate white women, they’re typically misogynist in their outlook, period. I’ve known my husband for thirteen years, and while he frequently compliments my appearance, I have never, never in all that time heard him say anything negative about white women.

    Something similar I’ve encountered is white men who say something to the effect of, “Black women are so much more loyal and less demanding than white women.” On the surface this might look like a compliment. But it might also indicate that you’re dealing with a man who expects lower standards from a black woman simply because she is black.

    I would hope there are not as many of these type men out there as there were when I was dating in my twenties, but they do exist. I remember one blogger who had black women flocking around high-fiving him because he denigrated white women. As you’ve said before, we don’t need someone else’s used crown when we have such a spectacular one of our own.

    • Roslyn,

      You said, “I think there’s another reason why some black women are concerned about white men with fetishes — we’ve met white men with fetishes and it’s not pretty. I think we have to be careful when we say there’s nothing wrong with men appreciating the unique features that AA women have. That is true, but only if it IS about liking black women and not about hating white women.”

      Hmmm…after a bit of thought, I’ll have to disagree with this assessment. Here’s why:

      (1) AA women are generally NOT interacting socially with WM at all. Consequently, they’re not socially running across any WM, including the miniscule portion of WM that hate WW in particular. So their fetish paranoia is not based on their real-life experiences. This “fetish” paranoia is not based on actual, real life experience with WM with “fetishes,” because the vast majority of AA women has closed themselves off from interacting with WM at all on any social level.

      (2) From what I’ve observed, there are VERY few WM who have anti-WW “fetishes” of the sort that you described. There are a lot of WM—the same way there are a lot of all types of men—who dislike women in general. There are plenty of male creeps in all racial and ethnic groups. But the specific type of “Boogey Man-WM With A ‘Fetish'” that BW are so paranoid about is quite RARE in the real world.

      There are many, many more WM who are either: (1) racists and therefore uninterested in have a substantive relationship with any woman of color; or (2) sexist creeps who dislike all women in general. [Similar to how there’s a similar distribution of creeps among the males of every racial and ethnic group.] As you know, having sex with women does NOT mean that a particular man necessarily likes or respects that woman or any woman in general.

      The WM blogger you described is (was?) simply a nonblack version of Steve Harvey. The vast majority of AA women are extremely gullible, and will flock around males who pretend to pay attention to them. Most AA women are programmed to flock around any BM who verbally looks their way for any reason, including to exploit them. A MUCH smaller segment of AA women will flock around any nonblack man who verbally looks their way for any reason, including to exploit them. In both cases, all these BW are satisfied with verbal “Scooby snacks” and pats on the head. The male in question does not have to do anything concrete to demonstrate any actual concern or regard for these silly BW.

      *Addendum*
      My thoughts go back to the example of Asian women. From their observable behavior, it’s clear that they don’t care about that “fetish” thing. They’re perfectly content to weigh and assess each non-Asian man’s TYPE of “fetish” and DEGREE of “fetish” about Asian women. And see whether or not what that particular non-Asian man is bringing to their table works for THEM. I would suggest that more AA women jump off the moral high horse, and become as practical and pragmatic as the general pool of Asian women.

      Let me specifiy how I feel about the stolen crown situation: I only care about those sort of ethical issues in connection with my OWN Black sisters! And I’m most concerned about specifically AA women and girls. I don’t extend that level of concern to nonblack women. I’m not concerned about nonblack (including self-proclaimed, “Don’t you dare call me Black ‘biracial'”) women. If somebody’s stealing nonblack women’s crowns, that’s THEIR problem to deal with and not mine.

      Expect Success!

      • Kjen says:

        That makes sense as a vetting approach. I’ve been wary of being fetish-ized all my life and it has affected my dating life.
        Once I was flirting with an Asian guy, things are going fine and right when I was about to give him my number when i was stopped cold when he said something along the lines of “he was glad, because he’s always had a thing for black girls.”
        Now before then he hadn’t actually said anything alarming or negative BUT
        Suddenly worries about what he expected from me, thought of me whirled around my head. And kept whirling. I didn’t return his phone calls.

    • Faith Dow says:

      Oh I remember that blog. I admit I got caught up for a minute or two because it was so shocking in its reverse DBR-ism that I was disconnected from it. Eventually I realized why it was unhealthy. There are still a few WM who have blogs or invade BW forums who are flocked to (I’m thinking of one guy in particular) and that should be examined as well.

    • Lynn says:

      Rosyln,

      I have to agree with you, and respectfully disagree with Khadija on this aspect. However, this can be a slippery slope and BW need to practice discernment when dealing with any men, to include WM. I too have dated interracially for a long time, and I have encountered many WM who will sleep with a BW but are still rascists to the core. A lot of WM hate women in general, and they know as well that BW are not protected and are the most vulnerable group of women in the US. Therefore, they are more comfortable carrying out an anti-women agenda with us. Its similiar to WM who go overseas to find a bride. This is still a popular thing to do in many WM eyes, because they are looking for a woman who is vulnerable, naive, and more readily to be a doormat to them. They are all over the internet talking about how WW are unrealistic shrews.
      However, overall, this is still a minority of the WM population. The trick is too recognize, cut them offf, and concentrate on the pool of men, irregardless of race, who views BW as potential wife material. They are out there and we have to be smart about looking for them. Personally, some of the characteristics I’ve observed of “DBR” WM, are:
      1. Never been married at forty, though gainfully employed, no prison record, etc.
      2. Says derogatory remarks about any ethnic group. White people know that is still taboo, even if it occurs among ethnic groups and some WM will attempt to play around using these terms.
      3. Previously married to a WW 10-20 years ago, since then has always dated BW, but never remarried or got engaged. Again is still gainfully employed, etc.
      4. Avoid the “wiggas” , wannabes, etc at all costs! WM who have all BM as friends, listen/talk hip hop, and all that bullshyt, DO NOT give them the time of day. If we wanted a Black WM, we could be with a light skinned brotha!
      5. WM who do not introduce you to family, friends, co-workers, etc. They feel their relationship is something to hide.
      6. As Rosyln said, WM who denigrate WW, or women in their own ethnic group, to include Jewish women!
      7. WM who try to ‘box’ you in. What I mean by that, is a guy who will, just like Black People, tell you “BW don’t do/do_________”. Again, they are primarily interested in BW who fit the stereotypes, usually for a thrill. Most BWE bloggers will never be happy with this guy because as quiet as it is kept, they are attracted to and want to live vicariously a certain lifestyle, and those of us who have our acts together will never be involved in that lifestyle.

      This list is not the end all be all. I would love to hear if anyone has anything to add. You will find WM of all socio-econmic backgrounds who are DBR and want to take advantage of BW. Last year I broke up with a doctor because of his ‘under the radar’ rascist tendencies. You HAVE to use discernment. Like Faith has said on her blog, not every WM is a good mate for a BW. But numerically, there are more WM, who are willing to date and marry BW, and who are raised to know a man’s responsibilities, than there are non-intra rascists, no -colorists BM out there.

      • Lynn,

        It’s okay for us to agree to disagree. 🙂 However, for the sake of clarity—

        —and knowing that there are legions in the reading audience who are working overtime to misconstrue my statements—

        —I do have to respond:

        I don’t see much contradiction between what you’re saying and what I said in my response to Roslyn. Again, it’s fine if there were a major contradiction, but I don’t see it.

        You said, “I have to agree with you, and respectfully disagree with Khadija on this aspect. However, this can be a slippery slope and BW need to practice discernment when dealing with any men, to include WM. I too have dated interracially for a long time, and I have encountered many WM who will sleep with a BW but are still rascists to the core. A lot of WM hate women in general, and they know as well that BW are not protected and are the most vulnerable group of women in the US. Therefore, they are more comfortable carrying out an anti-women agenda with us. Its similiar to WM who go overseas to find a bride. This is still a popular thing to do in many WM eyes, because they are looking for a woman who is vulnerable, naive, and more readily to be a doormat to them. They are all over the internet talking about how WW are unrealistic shrews. However, overall, this is still a minority of the WM population. “

        But isn’t this more or less the same as what I said? I said the following (and I’ll boldface the parts that overlap with your statement):

        (2) From what I’ve observed, there are VERY few WM who have anti-WW “fetishes” of the sort that you described. There are a lot of WM—the same way there are a lot of all types of men—who dislike women in general. There are plenty of male creeps in all racial and ethnic groups. But the specific type of “Boogey Man-WM With A ‘Fetish'” that BW are so paranoid about is quite RARE in the real world.

        There are many, many more WM who are either: (1) racists and therefore uninterested in have a substantive relationship with any woman of color; or (2) sexist creeps who dislike all women in general. [Similar to how there’s a similar distribution of creeps among the males of every racial and ethnic group.] As you know, having sex with women does NOT mean that a particular man necessarily likes or respects that woman or any woman in general.

        Again, I don’t see much contradiction between your reply and mine. Let me be clear: I never said that there weren’t racist WM who are looking to have sex with, but never marry, women of color (including BW). I’ve been saying that:

        (1) The specific type of WM With A ‘Fetish’ Boogeyman that AA women are warned about is rare among the much larger pool of WM who are creeps when it comes to women in general.

        (2) There’s a much larger pool of women-hating WM who hate ALL women in general, including Western WW. And they hate Western WW because these women are empowered and have options.

        (3) There’s also a much larger pool of racist WM who are therefore uninterested in having a substantive relationship with any woman of color. That type and degree of racist WON’T marry a BW. He also WON’T bother to put on a convincing charade of publicly courting a BW. As in the sort of public courting that is typically expected to lead to marriage. It’s not like this sort of thing is so hard to suss out. Not for a woman who’s paying close attention to the public signals being given or NOT given.

        Similar to how BW who think they’re the girlfriends or fiances of BM who have NEVER publicly introduced them as their girlfriends or fiances should know better.

        I will also note that these public signals (or lack of such) shouldn’t be a mystery when it comes to dating foreign Blacks and other foreign men:

        If the foreign man is not making a point of introducing you to his various family members from the home country—especially the women from his family (not just the men because they might have their own little mutual secret-keeping going on about women who don’t know they’re considered only jumpoffs)—that’s one good way to tell that you’re just a way for him to pass the time.

        Expect Success!

        • Lynn says:

          Ladies, I have to say that I love this blog and the myriad points of view everyone brings to the table. In response to Khadija’s respone to me, :-); I want to clarify a few things. I agree with Rosyln that there is a portion of WM, from my personal experience it can be significant in certain parts of the country, who target BW for only short term flings based upon certain physical/mental attractions. We can call them fetishes or not, I don’t really care. My point is even if there are certain subgroups of WM who do this, WM are still the largest male demographic in this country. So numerically speaking the vast numbers of WM in the US will still proportionally work in our favor when we target them for potential mates. The issue then becomes not carrying over the ‘fairness’ doctrine BW use when vetting BM. I’m not saying we need to scrutinize and weigh everything a WM does, but if a WM has certain traits, we need to carefully assess if he will uplift you or just use you.

          That being said, a women will always attract what she projects into the real world. This goes back to the mentality shifts Khadija and Faith have talked about. If a BW is projecting ghetto, vulgarity, and promiscuity ( via urban or tight clothes, coarse language, etc.), then she will attract DBR men who are attracted to that, irregardless of race. Personally, once I tightened up my appearance, by wearing well fitted, modest, classier clothing in most public venues, lowered the volume of my voice, etc (I almost always speak proper english), I get far more QLL type of men vs DBRs.

          Ladies, Ebonics, letting it all hang out, mean facial expressions, tight clothing will not attract Quality WM. That’s the plain truth. Quality men look for ladies and want to treat ladies special. BTW, I also find that if a WM approaches me the way a ‘typical’ brother does, he is automatically crossed off. Online, if a WM uses lots of slang in their profile I would not contact him. No time wasted on his triflingness. WM ( I can’t say ALL) who do this do not treat BM as individuals, rather as objects who they may be able to score with. Also, if a WM experiences anger or rage because you reject him, get away asap. There are still WM who think BW are fair game and how dare we reject their advances!

          Before I enetered my current relationship with a WM, I observed some of this behavior from WM across the board. I dated bankers, doctors, engineers, professional men and some were turned off because I’m too mainstream. I’m convinced some (not all ) WM who date BW are attracted to a drama-filled lifestyle. They are attracted to BW with chaos in their lives and will find some excuse to dump you once they get sex from you.

          On the other hand, I’ve dated WM who were divorced from BW, due to infidelity or some bad-faith on the wife’s end, and they still view BW as potential mates. My best relationships have always been with WM, but all of my relationships with WM have not been my best relationships. I’ve definitely learned over time how to pick better guys, period.

          BWE is great at helping BW do this. But I do feel we have a responsibility for the younger BGs to at least give them the warning that DBRs exist across the board, and also maybe some red flags to watch for. Personally, there’s an over 90% probability I will never date a BM again. I don’t have the time or the inclination to weed the DBRs out. There are too many nuanced sexist/racist mentalities to be bothered with. WM are definitely a more viable option right now for BW

          • MsMellody says:

            Lynn,
            This was a great response.

            Your addition of specificity as it pertains to “how” and the “why” of this issue of vetting, fetishes, your appropriate and needed responses when faced with the challenges and rewards of IR dating was excellent!!!

            I sincerely hope other women here take note of Lynn’s response.

      • Natalie says:

        Hello Lynn

        I agree with you on commenting on “Avoid the “wiggas” , wannabes, etc at all costs! WM who have all BM as friends, listen/talk hip hop, and all that bullshyt, DO NOT give them the time of day. If we wanted a Black WM, we could be with a light skinned brotha!”

        These types of “honorary negro” card men LEARN and OBSERVE from BM how to treat black women. I experienced this firsthand and will never allow such down trodden WM like these in my life. Experiencing this has caused me to view WM and other non-BM differently now with a discerning eye.

  8. This “fetish” paranoia is not based on actual, real life experience with WM with “fetishes,” because the vast majority of AA women has closed themselves off from interacting with WM at all on any social level.

    I’m not so sure about that. Whether black women have shut themselves off socially from white men they certainly can’t completely avoid encountering them. Before I dated even one white man, I encountered plenty with the “I always wanted me a black woman” mentality. In many communities it’s a rite of passage and I was still encountering them in the late-nineties. And these weren’t old white men, they were men in their early 30s. Again, this was very much the norm in the community where I grew up. I don’t know a southern black woman in my demographic who hasn’t encountered the same. Obviously, black women are going to tell other black women about their experiences. Doesn’t mean it’s still currently happening, but it most certainly has happened. I also know plenty of black women in their 20s and 30s who’ve had white men approach them at parties and such with a request to “dance like a video girl.” Again, it probably doesn’t happen every day, but it occurs enough to at least be something to be wary of.

    From what I’ve observed, there are VERY few WM who have anti-WW “fetishes” of the sort that you described.

    Clearly your experiences are different from mine. Might be geography. I met plenty of them over the dozen or so years I dated IR. This is especially true of bitter white men who are divorced from white women and are seeking black women because of it. I ran into so many of them in the personals that I stopped online dating for quite a while because of it. At one time the internet was full of those guys as well. I’m not sure if they’re still around, but I imagine that some of the people who are interested in IR and have been around as long as I have definitely remember them.

    I’m not saying there’s any reason to be paranoid, just that it pays to be wary of the “I love black wimmin” contingent. They’re not all crazy, but quite a few of them are, at least in my experience.

    (1) racists and therefore uninterested in have a substantive relationship with any woman of color; or

    I have to disagree again, because I have encountered white men who are in fact racist and will marry or have relationships with women of a racial group they hate. At one point I encountered so many I was pretty much convinced that racists are attracted to interracial dating. I had several girlfriends when I was in the military who I was horrified to discover had married men who casually used racial epithets and made all sorts of derogatory remarks about black people. Keep in mind that John Rocker, the racist ex-baseball player, is now married to a black woman (and no, he hasn’t changed his attitudes about black folk.)

    • Roslyn,

      I don’t know if what you’re describing is a regional, specifically “Land of Dixie,” sort of thing. But it’s upside-down and the reverse of what I’ve seen.

      Another thing is that the people who voluntarily join the US military form a sub-demographic that is not at all representative of the distribution of various attitudes among the overall US population. That difference can cut both ways.

      I don’t want to offend anybody who served, but the all-volunteer US military is an extremely SKEWED segment of the US population in many ways. I don’t believe that one can use what goes on among the all-volunteer US military and apply that to the general American public.

      Expect Success!

      • Forgot to add, none of the women I referred to were married to enlisted men. One was married to a full-bird colonel who was an Academy graduate to boot. Racist attitudes aren’t limited to the enlisted, witness that Army doctor they just court-martialed for being a birther.

        • Roslyn,

          It doesn’t matter whether they’re enlisted soldiers or officers. The type of person who voluntarily joins the US military—including by way of attending service colleges like West Point, etc.—is not representative of the overall US population.

          Joining the military is not an attractive idea to the public at large. The type of person who finds joining the US military to be an attractive idea is not representative of the general public. There’s something going on with that sort of choice.

          Either the person is poor and does not have any other economic choices other than to try to get a job at WalMart.

          Or, they’re looking for the US military to pay their way through college and professional school.

          Or, if they do have other choices and ways of accomplishing whatever it is that they want, then they join the US military because they’re caught up in ideology of some sort.

          Like I said, I don’t want to offend anybody, but voluntarily joining the US military is some offbeat stuff. And not something that the American public at large is interested in.

          Expect Success!

          • I forgot one other category of folks who find the notion of joining the US military attractive:

            Immigrants (legal and otherwise) who are looking for a fast track to being granted US citizenship.

            {slipping into Ebonic} Like I said, ain’t nobody trying to join the US military except for folks in the above-mentioned categories. That’s why the US military has to keep recycling the sliver of the available US population who do sign up for service (through endless multiple tours of duty, stop-loss schemes, etc.).

            Expect Success!

          • RColeman says:

            I must agree on this….the above reasons are why the majority of those in the military volunteer. I enlisted in order to avoid working for “walmarts” and to help pay for college. High Schools and colleges do have many who oppose recruiters coming onto those campuses.

            I must add one more reason that I saw quite frequently- Those who are told (usually very young adults) by a criminal court judge to either join the military or go to jail.

            However, you are both correct from what I see. Both my 1st and 3rd ex-husbands are white.
            All men are capable of ratchetassness.

            Neither one displayed a fetish tendency ever. However, the racist drivel that came out before and during my divorce from my 3rd ex was astounding.

          • RColeman,

            The all-volunteer US military functions as an economic draft and an ideological draft. People generally join because they don’t have other ways of accessing the money for their aspirations. [Can’t find a job otherwise. Or can’t otherwise get the money for college and/or professional school.]

            Or they join because they’re off into hyper-patriotic ideologies—ranging from the mildly right-wing through various, scary and extremist right-wing ideologies.

            The all-volunteer US military is not composed of a representative cross-section of the US public.

            These people are gradually forming a professional mercenary caste of people who are willing to sign up to kill other people in exchange for money. Look at Blackwater/Xe Services (or whatever they’re calling themselves these days). The perceived need for, or existence of something like that—created by American former soldiers—to fight for the American government as mercenaries—was unheard of during previous eras when the draft was still going on.

            The important point is that members of the all-volunteer US military are increasingly NO LONGER the “Citizen-Soldiers” (which was the ideal behind the draft). They’re gradually turning into something else—mercenaries.

            This transformation of the US military into a mercenary caste that’s separate and apart from the rest of the country’s citizens is EXTREMELY dangerous for the civilian population.

            I hope I’m wrong about this, but I predict that the sort of people who join the US military will SOON pose a physical threat to the rest American population in the near future. There are plenty of Timothy McVeighs in the all-volunteer US military. AND more than a few John Allen Muhammads.

            The FBI is aware of this, but this process of having a professional-mercenary-military that has increasingly less and less in common with the civilian population is too far gone to be corrected. The only thing that would halt that process (reinstating the draft) is politically impossible at this point.

            *Addendum*
            Thanks for mentioning the young near-jailbirds who choose the military over the prospect of ending up in jail. I had forgotten about them.

            Expect Success!

  9. I don’t extend that level of concern to nonblack women. I’m not concerned about nonblack (including self-proclaimed, “Don’t you dare call me Black ‘biracial’”) women.

    My concern is not about nonblack women either. I’m indifferent to them as well, however, I find it distasteful that so many black women are so desperate for validation that they’ll circle around somebody else’s table scraps. It’s not a good look, and frankly I think it’s disgusting.

    I would suggest that more AA women jump off the moral high horse, and become as practical and pragmatic as the general pool of Asian women.

    I’m as pragmatic as they come, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to encourage anyone to mate/date with anyone who might have misogynist leanings. I also think it’s disingenuous to say that the paranoia about fetishes comes primarily from white women. I’ve seen too many white men behave in an appalling manner toward minority women. It’s their behavior that has caused some women to look askance at them, and most of them would admit it if asked. Some of the questions my husband gets asked are so appalling I truly wonder if some of these men are being reared by wildebeests.

    Whether Asian women choose to overlook the behavior or not is their choice. Black women can assuredly choose to do the same, but for those of us who don’t want to have anything to do with men of that mindset I think it’s only reasonable to at least acknowledge that it does exist and isn’t something we made up or bought into through gullibility.

    • Roslyn,

      It looks like we’ve hit several “agree to disagree” points, which is fine. 🙂

      You said, “Whether Asian women choose to overlook the behavior or not is their choice. Black women can assuredly choose to do the same, but for those of us who don’t want to have anything to do with men of that mindset I think it’s only reasonable to at least acknowledge that it does exist and isn’t something we made up or bought into through gullibility.”

      I beg to differ. For several reasons. First, as I said before, from what I’ve seen most of the AA women spouting that “fetish” fear have never interacted socially with WM. They don’t know what may or may not being going on with those men, because they don’t talk to them. Let’s not act like we’ve never seen the droves of AA women who are on social “shut-down” while they’re at work, or in any other setting where Whites are present. Most AA women self-segregate, and they do so rigidly. So, no—they’re not having interactions with WM that are not directly work-related.

      Second, there’s not any one type or level of behavior that Asian women are “overlooking.” I would think it depends on the personal circumstances of each individual Asian woman. Yep, the powerless, poor Asian mail-order bride is probably “overlooking” quite a bit. Rupert Murdoch’s Asian wife, the CBS news executive’s Asian wife—are probably not “overlooking” anything.

      The everyday, average Asian women peers that AA women see around them in grad school or at work—are probably not “overlooking” very much. These women have options that they’ve cultivated for themselves.

      Finally, yes, I do think that this “fetish” paranoia is something that WW made up (with others like BM singing the background chorus), and AA women bought into due to our overall gullibility. Because from what I see the “fetish” paranoia is waaay out of proportion to actual conditions on the ground.

      It’s similar to how the dead Black community has AA women spooked about moving out and into nonblack and/or diverse areas. Yes, there are definitely pockets of racist neighborhoods that a Black person—any Black person—should NEVER pass through, much less move to. But there are so many more OTHER nonblack neighborhoods that are good places for anybody—including normal Black folks—to live.

      Expect Success!

  10. I don’t know if what you’re describing is a regional, specifically “Land of Dixie,” sort of thing. But it’s upside-down and the reverse of what I’ve seen.

    Check the personals from almost any dating site. It’s pretty much from every region of the country from what I can tell, unless something has drastically changed since I was last on them. And judging from the email I get from young women, I’m thinking it hasn’t.

    I don’t believe that one can use what goes on among the all-volunteer US military and apply that to the general American public.

    From what I’ve seen the all-volunteer military is pretty representative of all but the upper-middle class and up of society. It’s also been my experience that in many cases lower echelon whites can sometimes be less racist than those in the top tier because they’ve actually been around black folks, whereas wealthier whites generally only know what they’ve seen on TV. Of course, YMMV, but that’s simply been my experience.

  11. “fetish” fear have never interacted socially with WM.

    You don’t have to interact socially with white men to see it. Most of this hasn’t come from white men I’ve socialized with. I’ve encountered it mostly in the workplace, especially when I worked in banking.

    Because from what I see the “fetish” paranoia is waaay out of proportion to actual conditions on the ground.

    I can only speak for my experiences and those of the women I know. I know I didn’t make up what I saw in the military, college, grad school, the work place and now as a married woman living in a predominately white upscale community. I’m many things, but gullible is not one of them. Is it out of proportion to actual experience? I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but certainly mine is not, but it is something I encounter enough to make note of it. And since I’ve never had a white woman make such a comment to me I certainly can’t attribute it to them.

    These women have options that they’ve cultivated for themselves.

    We can call it whatever we like, I just know I’ve seen too many of them laugh at “sucky, sucky $5” type commentary coming from a white man to believe for one moment that they aren’t choosing to deliberately overlook disrespectful behavior. Again, that’s their choice, and black women can choose to do the same, but it’s inaccurate to claim that this is something made up by black men and white women. The behavior is real, and something I’ve personally experienced.

    • Lisa99 says:

      I think I agree with both of you. 😀

      I don’t know a thing about the military, but I know that when I was single and dating, recently divorced WM FLOCKED to me. I never quite understood WHY I seemed to meet so many divorced men (especially considering how young I was at the time — too young to really be interacting all that much with divorced men on a regular basis), but after spending some time on the BWIR boards, I think I can figure out why.

      Because many of them were not necessarily looking to settle down soon, they were choosing to date up a storm AND go after types of women they might have been socially conditioned to avoid when they were younger. So that meant that if they wanted to approach the college girl, it was now cool. Or in my case, the black girl. After all, they never got a chance to see what it was like to date one, so now that it’s no holds barred because they’re divorced, why not?

      That’s one reason that I warn younger, marriage-minded black women about these guys, even if the men aren’t all that “old” themselves (say, late 30s).

      That being said, I also agree with Khadija that most of the BW who talk about WM fetishes have barely had a conversation with a WM unless forced to (at work, at school, etc.), and are only speaking about fetishes based on “what they’ve heard,” or what someone told them. I find it annoying that these particular BW get a wider audience among BW in general when talking about IR dating and marriage, when an actual IR married BW is ignored when she speaks of her REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE dating and marrying interracially… I know of very few IR married BW who found the whole “fetish” thing to be much of an issue in their IR dating lives… it certainly was not in mine when we’re talking of men in general who showed interest in me for a potentially serious relationship.

    • Karen says:

      Roslyn,

      I am not discounting your experiences but I worry that with over 300+ million people in the U.S., why so much focus on such a group of WM that have issues.

      My approach as always been to evaluate a person on an individual basis. I think that is the best approach for all of us.

      I personally have never encountered this behavior and have worked exclusively with WM for “many” moons as I work in a technical area. On a private basis, I have also never experiences this behavior.

      Does it mean that this behavior does not exist – of course not, but I would also not want to paint a picture that behind every WM a possible “fetish” is hiding in the bush. At the end of the day, we must “vet” the people we choose to bring into our lives.

      • tertiaryanna says:

        Karen

        At the end of the day, we must “vet” the people we choose to bring into our lives.

        Khadija
        That type and degree of racist WON’T marry a BW. He also WON’T bother to put on a convincing charade of publicly courting a BW. As in the sort of public courting that is typically expected to lead to marriage. It’s not like this sort of thing is so hard to suss out. Not for a woman who’s paying close attention to the public signals being given or NOT given.

        I agree. I think guys like a challenge, and sometimes that involves collecting trophies. A woman can get burned by a guy with this attitude, but I think that’s because she’s not paying attention to what’s happening.

        I think that most guys are very transparent about their intentions.

        Women are taught to apologize for asking for things, and to subdue their own desires for others. Men are NOT taught that. They’re not taught to explain away or hide what they want. So if you listen or pay attention to what they do, they’ll tell on themselves.

        There are some guys that are liars, but it’s hard to be a good liar for any length of time.

        I think women don’t always pay attention to the signals though. I think women don’t believe that a guy means what he does.

        If a guy just wants to use a woman, for whatever reason, things are going to look imbalanced. If the guy isn’t willing to legitimize the relationship, there will be signs about that too.

        I’ve encountered a couple of racist men who were just interested in getting a BW in the bedroom. So they’d be nice, but “looking for bed-partner nice.” That’s a guy on the prowl, not a potential husband.

        However, it was EXTREMELY EASY to figure that out. Sometimes the guys would just say so (by saying that I wasn’t like other BW, and putting down “regular” BW.) The other times, it was because I said what I was looking for (a relationship) and it wasn’t what they were looking for.

        I never got burned by these guys, because even though they were racists, they weren’t sociopaths. They weren’t lying to me, and I gave myself time to get to know them. Just because a man pays attention doesn’t mean I need to get my feelings tied up in him.

        I’d hate to see BW feel so desperate for male attention that they fail to use common sense and discretion.

        If a man wants you to be his little secret, or if he’s denigrating other people like you in your presence, then it’s a hint that when things go sour, you’ll get hurt. This applies to any guy. There are other ways to be a trophy, not just race. I’ve also seen this when a guy (of that mindset) thinks a woman isn’t part of the usual hunting pool.

        If the guy is willing to share his life with you (meeting his friends, family, associates, doing the same with you) and you feel that you’d let a guy like him date your sister, then I wouldn’t worry if he finds you or your color a massive turn-on. Some people are very chexual, and visually orientated.

        I think people rush into the chexual aspect too quickly, anyway. If it’s meant to be, it’ll happen. If not, there’s no reason to rush. I think unless a woman is just out for trophies herself, it’s unwise to race into a sexual relationship before you’re comfortable with the emotional one.

        I think that if a woman takes some time to get to know herself and reflect on what she needs and wants, it’ll be easier for her to see if a potential partner is promising, or just fool’s gold. I don’t think it’s necessary to worry that you’ll be fooled by a guy. What BW need to worry about is fooling themselves.

        • MsMellody says:

          Tertiaryanna- You are SOOOO Correct in this assessment. I enjoyed your comment immensely. As a married woman I 100% co-sign with your common sense approach.

          This especially is true for you ladies who are single – get to know yourself FIRST, decide what you NEED and want in a man, and believe me the universe will take care of the rest as you actively get out there and make yourself an approachable, inviting butterfly.

    • Melissa Q. says:

      Although the ‘fetish’ behavior exists within a percentage of the WM population, isn’t the payoff better? Going out of the black construct you are going to face racism/sexism/etc. Heck, even within the black construct, you are going to still see another form of racism (colorism), sexism, etc. BM ‘fetish’ us when they jive on BET about out curves. I bet there are WW that are being ‘fetished’ by BM also.

      The WM who have a ‘fetish’ exist, but DBR folk are within every population. I is important that BW start to separate the wheat from the shaft. You can’t segregate yourself from everyone out of a fear of finding people with a fetish. Bad people are a fact of life.

      • MelissaQ.,

        You said, “Although the ‘fetish’ behavior exists within a percentage of the WM population, isn’t the payoff better?”

        This appears to be the conclusion that Asian women have drawn—the payoff is worth the risks.

        Expect Success!

      • Oshun/Aphrodite says:

        I agree with this as well. That the payoff is worth the risk. Especially considering all the negatives that are floating around about BW.

  12. Joyousnerd says:

    I have seen the icky behavior Roslyn describes, and it is truly ugly. Any woman does need to have critical thinking skills to vet men. When racial dynamics come into play, she needs to be even more savvy. Sadly, from what I have seen most BW are so indoctrinated and accustomed to the shabbiest treatment that they will be unable to see the danger in one of these white men with poisonous ideas about BW and unhealthy interest.

    For instance there was a white guy in one of my college classes who made a point to say racist things about black people in class. He did this because he thought it was amusing to see the black female students squawk like wet hens. When he came on to me I looked at him like he had taken leave of his senses. Sadly a less savvy BW in the class took him up on his interest. A man of any race who finds it funny to insult BW is a poor choice. This is the same behavior we see from DBRBM! Just because it is coming from a white man doesn’t make it ok.

    I have seen from dating sites that there is a contingent of WM who have an interest in BW because they believe that they can get away with behavior like rampant cheating, violence, addiction and failure to provide. All they have to do is look at the scads of BW who tolerate this self-same behavior from BM to see a meal-ticket and a mule with a vagina are easy to come by in the BC.

    HOWEVER-
    those DBR WM are few. There are many WM who find BW physically appealing and who have been told to keep away from this “forbidden fruit” their whole lives. Many of these guys think a BW would never want them, because they are too “nerdy”. They may be inexperienced, but they are looking for a life partner to treat the way their father treated his mother. THOSE are the ones to go for, and they are legion!

    Most BW automatically respond with fear and suspicion NOT because they have used their critical thinking skills to suss out sick and unacceptable WM, but rather due to indoctrination. Most BW believe that they are inherently unattractive because they are black. They have also been told many times in their homes by their families that WM only want you for sex, WM are perverts if they want you, a WM will get a black girl for kinky stuff that a delicate WW won’t do etc.

    This indoctrination is two-fold:
    BW have been brainwashed by well-meaning older female relatives (who may have had access to decent BM to choose from for marriage unlike today’s BW) and from DBR BM relatives who want to keep them in the Baby Mama Brigade.

    As we have covered many times, BM benefit by keeping BW indoctrinated into ignoring or repudiating WM’s advances. No need to cover that again.

    BW don’t ask cui bono because in order to do that you have to have a baseline belief that 1. You have needs 2. You have a right to meet those needs 3. You are entitled to create a life for yourself that meets your needs (instead of waiting for it to fall in your lap) and 4. You were not born and bred to carry other people on your back. Most BW are simply not there yet. There’s a lot of indoctrination to unpack before a BW can get to the point where she is mentally healthy.

    Oh, and co-sign about the military. Never, ever would I consider the advances of a man in the military or law enforcement. Not happening, ever, under any circumstances. Those two subgroups have abnormally high rates of domestic violence and (slipping into ebonics) I ain’t the one.

  13. ZooPath says:

    I agree with Roslyn that racist WW are out there and are very creepy and gross. However, I agree with Khadija that most BW are not having to trip over these men in their everyday dating lives. I also agree that this “fetish” idea originates from outside the AA BW collective. The reason why is because IMo it’s rooted in the idea that BW are so inherently inferior that any preference for us must originate from a state of deviance or depravity. I would hop that we would not come up with something like that ourselves.

    As for qui bono, I’ve started applying this principle over the past few years due in large part to this blog and Khadija’s book. It’s been very disillusioning to realize all the people close to me and entities far removed from me that are actively manipulating me for their own ends. Sometimes their intentions are merely neutral, sometimes not so neutral. My husband has always viewed the world like this so when I would tell him about some ground-breaking realization he would smugly reply as if I were suprised at the blueness of the sky. AA’s and AA BW especially are not strong in the strategic thinking department and we need to catch a clue, quickly.

  14. Evia says:

    My thoughts go back to the example of Asian women. From their observable behavior, it’s clear that they don’t care about that “fetish” thing. They’re perfectly content to weigh and assess each non-Asian man’s TYPE of “fetish” and DEGREE of “fetish” about Asian women. And see whether or not what that particular non-Asian man is bringing to their table works for THEM. I would suggest that more AA women jump off the moral high horse, and become as practical and pragmatic as the general pool of Asian women.

    Khadija, I am thrilled that you’re having the “watch out! wm have a fetish for y’all bw,” conversation. I even think this should be a whole book (written by someone out there) because a LOT of bw–who I’ve talked with re the topic of IR dating will wave that “watch out! wm want have a fetish for bw” flag. They are on a fetish-hunt and harbor from a mild to extreme degree of suspicion of any wm desiring them.

    Not even one bw has ever mentioned to me this “bw fetish” in connection with Asian, Hispanic, Arab men desiring bw, yet I’ve heard and read frequently where Hispanic men have made it clearly known that they like women with posteriors of larger dimensions. Some of these Hispanic men will mention bw in that context, and I’ve never heard any outrage from bw about that.

    So, this “bw fetish” accusation is one of several, aimed almost totally at wm. I’m convinced that this accusation against wm is actually a “COVER” for a profound amount of FEAR among AAs and some other blacks that if given a choice, the typical black woman will choose wm over bm. A LOT of blacks won’t admit that though. They can’t even discuss that. It’s too upsetting, even terrifying.

    Despite that, the fear is always operating beneath the surface and this is why there was and continues to be (in some quarters) the need among so many bw to publicly go into overdrive to make bm feel that the bm was/is the KANG of men when it comes to sex and male desirability. Most bw, for ex, don’t say anything when bm make the ludicrous statement that they’re the most masculine men on earth. LOL! No bw would ever ask these bm what they’re basing that on because it’s just that pathetic.

    It’s only natural for ANY woman to be very attracted to men who have demonstrated that they are very strong providers and protectors of women and children, and wm–in general–SHOW this everyday. Natural selection has always favored those women who do that. Yet so many bw have self-gagged when it comes to saying that. This is the main reason why so many of bw’s daughters keep picking loser mates. If they teach their daughters to only mingle with the men who’ve shown they have a high probability of being strong providers and protectors, obviously many of these younger bw will not look toward the typical bm of today. At All.

    This FEAR is also the reason why so many blacks constantly try to chip away at the wm’s desirability to bw AND implant fears in bw about wm.

    However, most of us bw know that when bw PRIVATELY talk amongst themselves, this anti-wm tune changes to a large extent. I’ve been in conversations with bw about IR dating where even the most rabid anti-wm type of bw softens her tune in PRIVATE. LOL! The bottom line is that a lot of bw I’ve met have a high degree of curiosity about wm as lovers and husbands, but most of these AA women (for sure) would NEVER, EVER publicly admit that.

    This is one of the main reasons why so many AAs, and even some (though a much smaller percentage) of the westernized black ethnics seem to not be able to figure out why a wm would possibly be interested in a bw unless he’s a loser and can’t get a ww, aw, hw or any other type of woman. This is just another version of the “COVER.” LOL! Instead of conveying to black girls and women that they appeal to a large percentage of men in the world since the Creator has made them that way, black folks scratch their heads claiming to be confused about any non-bm’s interest in bw. This is just a smokescreen to cover up their FEAR of the most feared male competitor of bm. WHITE MEN.

    Naturally, this fetish suspicion highly benefits black men and the black “community” at the expense of bw because it works as a VERY effective way of preventing bw from even being interested in dating and marrying wm. It’s easy to plant fear in women.

    What’s really laughable is that if you question some bw, they don’t even know what a fetish is, yet they’re afraid that wm have one for them. LOL!!!!!

    The position I’ve always taken re the “wm have a bw fetish” notion is that if a wm TREATS a bw like he loves, cherishes and adores her, this is what’s important. It’s about good TREATMENT. This is what a bw should be looking for from ANY type of man, and if she mostly gets that, why would it matter to her what turns a man on the most sexually about her? The way a man treats a woman is OBVIOUS. Why do bw try to dig inside the recesses of a wm’s brain when they certainly don’t do it with bm and bm are the ones who are their greatest users and abusers BY FAR.

    What exactly is a “fetish.” There is actual disagreement among noted psychiatrists and psychologists about what constitutes a fetish. For all I know, my husband Darren may have a “fetish” or a ‘highly eroticized fascination/fixation or interest’ in one or more my black features or body parts. Most men do have a version of that for the woman in their life, so he probably has. I know he definitely adores my brown skin, my natural hair, and other physical features of mine that could be more easily found among bw. He’s complimented me about them. Is he a wm fetishizer? LOL! I-Do-Not-Care.

    I’ve got news for bw. A lot of bm also have an eroticized interest in one or more of their body parts that fits most of the definitions of a fetish.

    Another unsavory element that some black folks look for in the bw-wm relationship is the “bw as dominant” element. If a bw talks more than her white husband, she can easily be viewed by some as a ‘balls-busting’ bw who’s with a wimpy wm. Another stereotype.

    I can’t think of anything else that arouses the level of FEAR among AAs as does the idea that large numbers of AA women will choose wm as lovers and husbands. NOTHING else.

    If bw learn to VET men, they don’t have to be afraid of what ANY man has in the recesses of his brain. If a woman is always mindful and vigilant re the way a man TREATS her, that’ the key.

    • tertiaryanna says:

      Most men do have a version of that for the woman in their life,

      Precisely. I would hope that a man would be strongly physically attracted to the woman in his life. I don’t know if it’s true, but supposedly, men generally have a stronger libido than women. If that’s the case, I’d rather him have a fixation on me than on another woman.

      If it’s because of my color, or hair, perfect. At least that’s not going to be affected by cheeseburgers or gravity, LOL!

    • Palmwater says:

      Khadija, thank you for the great post!

      As Evia mentioned, it’a about good treatment! Maybe Canada is a bit different, but I have always dated interracially, and have never run into the wm that has a fetish. I have run into men that loved my features and admired the physical attributes of black women, and the differences between ww and bw. Many of the features that black women have are highly desirable! I just wish that more bw realized that.

      I think many black women are raised to believe that their features are outside of the attractive spectrum, and that men of other races would deem us unattractive. If a non-black man finds us attractive then something seriously must be wrong with him, as Evia pointed out.

      I also want to mention that when I was in Europe many of the African women who were married interracially were not “dimes” according to American standards, but their husbands loved their features and their nurturing qualities. I know that there are many black women who would consider these pairings as fetishes, but theses African women have elevated their lives and the lives of their children by partnering with Euro men who love the skin contrast. Like Asian women, they make it work for them! BW in North America need to do the same, vet, and make it work for you!

      • Oshun/Aphrodite says:

        This should be very encouraging to BW bc there is intense pressure for BW to be “dimes” as it relates to dating and marrying BM.

        I would hope that BW could find these nonBMs desire for their natural features liberating and refreshing.

        • mobile68 says:

          Oshun/Aphrodite says:
          This should be very encouraging to BW bc there is intense pressure for BW to be “dimes” as it relates to dating and marrying BM.

          Mobile68 says:
          Exactly! And the sad part not only do the BW have to be a dime piece, she has to do that all the while going to work(most likely is the primary breadwinner) & doing most, if not all the household chores & parenting.

          BM just want a dime mule.

    • ak says:

      Evia:

      Why do bw try to dig inside the recesses of a wm’s brain when they certainly don’t do it with bm and bm are the ones who are their greatest users and abusers BY FAR.

      True, true.

    • mobile68 says:

      Excellent points as always Evia.

      What I don’t get is why the BW don’t get the BM fetish w/ long hair?

      How did we as a people go from proudly sporting afros to weaves?

      The BW has practically made the hair weave industry a mint by buying into the BM fetish of “long flowing hair” because that’s one of the many fetishes that the BM have about WW.

      Yet BW will cheerlead “nothin’ but a brotha” like somebody really care. A Nothin’ but a brother who WON’T accept you in your natural state like most WM (who are sincere) will.

      It’s sad to see my sistahs bending & flexing themselves for somebody who won’t do the same for them.

      SMDH.

  15. shocol says:

    Hmmm… I don’t know if I really ask myself “Cui buono”. I do find myself asking, “What are the underlying assumptions required for me to remain in harmony/be accepted by this individual/group?” . With AA, I find, increasingly, that I don’t want to pay the “price of admission”, so to speak. Inclusion usually involves clinging to failed ideologies or is anti-BW.

  16. Truth P. says:

    One of my most recent “Who benefits/Cui bono” thoughts were in a conversation I was having with a group of friends about pre-nups,dating/marrying those with potential, and helping to build him up.

    This one right here can be tricky and is something that a lot of black women fall victim to.You date or get married to a man that has nothing but a dream.He really wants to work and really wants to better himself.Therefore you feel you’ve got a good man because he really wants to work legally and he could be selling drugs but he’s not.He seems driven and all he needs is a little help and a good woman behind him.You help him pursue his career.You help him develop his education or talents.You help finance the dream.The guy finally becomes successful and then you plan to reap what you have sown only to have him file for a divorce and take the resources elsewhere.I think pre-nups and a good knowledge of the law are MOST beneficial to black women in relationships with black men.

    Even though this lady lost her case I do think there are some things that some black women who have already married potential can learn from her
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/16/michael-douglas-exwife-di_n_784059.html

    With the Hill Harper’s of the world selling the “date/marry potential” crap to black women I’d say this is one of the biggest things black wives may have to contend with.

    Another “who benefits?” moment I’ve had is when I’ve pondered the VALUE of, and opportunity available to,the black girls who’d probably be considered the lowest of the low by most people.How they do not recognize their value/worth and opportunities that are before them and therefore squander those things on non reciprocating individuals when they could be living a better life.I’m speaking of the real life impoverished Gabourey Sidibe’s of America.

    I have met a few of these women in my lifetime and I always wondered what could happen for them if they ever recognized their worth and opportunities,how it would benefit them,and who stands to lose something if that were to happen.

    On their value:
    These girls/women were always unpaid babysitters for their mom’s and other folks children.WHY?The one’s that I knew sought to be friends with everyone and baby sitting was something they had to give to these others who didn’t value them.They were most of the time very giving of everything they had and would get nothing in return.It didn’t have to be that way.If they recognized their worth they could have been paid.Who else had no social life and spent every weekend at home?Who else was available to baby sit EVERY weekend?They could have got rich.

    A lot of these women,The Gabby’s, have sexual value and don’t even realize it.
    Despite all of the negativity and hatred I witnessed some of these women deal with they were some of the most sexed women you’d meet.Most of them had plenty of sex partners.I think to myself, how could those girls buy the lies of males and believe they are completely worthless due to their looks when these same guys are sexing them?If those real life impoverished Gabby’s were so ugly and worthless they’d all be virgins.If those guys could they’d be having sex with someone else right?
    I wonder what ways could the Gabby’s have profited in dealing with men.If not at all, at best they could have cut all dealings with those men and not had sex or children by them.

    Years ago when I’d see the Monique’s of the world with a man the man would be a perfect gentlemen though he was unemployed.The man seemed to cater to them and didn’t have a reputation for being out in the streets embarrassing and cheating on his Monique.These men understood that they were kept men and being the perfect husband was the price to be paid and they never would step out of line.Why is Monique with dude?If she knew her value she could have a man that wouldn’t dare cheat knowing that she is the one with all the money.

    Just some random thoughts.

    • TruthP.,

      When I was a teenager I often overheard older BW say something along the lines of “Never put a Negro through school!” This was said in the same tone of voice as the “Give a n-word 90 days!” motto I heard from my older female relatives.

      Basically, they were warning young BW not to in any way carry the financial burden of helping their husband finish college or go to grad/professional school. They were saying that these young husbands needed to work full-time and go to school during the evenings—on their OWN dime—if they wanted to advance their educations. In other words, the husband’s schooling was something “extra” that he needed to figure out how to finance on his own (without looking to his wife to help shoulder that burden).

      As a teenager who was thinking idealistic and what I mistakenly thought were “egalitarian” thoughts, I thought what they were saying was harsh and mean. But then I grew up and saw the pattern play out—the same pattern that was the underlying reason they gave young Black wives that particular bit of advice.

      What I saw over and over again was the pattern that you described when you said, “This one right here can be tricky and is something that a lot of black women fall victim to.You date or get married to a man that has nothing but a dream.He really wants to work and really wants to better himself.Therefore you feel you’ve got a good man because he really wants to work legally and he could be selling drugs but he’s not.He seems driven and all he needs is a little help and a good woman behind him.

      You help him pursue his career.You help him develop his education or talents.You help finance the dream.The guy finally becomes successful and then you plan to reap what you have sown only to have him file for a divorce and take the resources elsewhere.”

      The frequent pattern is what you described: Once many of these ambitious, struggling men get where they want to be—then they discard the same wife who helped them get there! They discard the same wife who was in their corner when they had nothing but dreams and empty pockets. I figure that pre-nups probably weren’t available during the era when there older BW were coming up. So, they were basically warning young BW NOT to invest to that degree in a man’s dream when—later on down the road—the odds were that these same BW would NOT get to reap the benefits of having helped make that man’s dream come true.

      So, yeah, pre-nups are something to carefully consider.

      About the situation with the “Gabbys” and the “Moniques”: Sometimes you have to risk going without whatever for a period of time in order to make a bigger gain in the near future. So, for them to straighten those situations out, they would have to risk getting NO fake positive feedback from the people who are using them. They would have to give up the crumb of getting the pat on the head from those users.

      That’s a lonely path while you work on finding new, reciprocating people. And it’s a lot of work because it would require them to leave what’s socially familiar to them. That’s hard as h*ll; so I can see why so many “Gabbys” and “Moniques” just don’t have the emotional reserves to cope with getting NOTHING at all (not even a pat on the head) while seeking out a better situation for themselves.

      Expect Success!

      • tertiaryanna says:

        “So, they were basically warning young BW NOT to invest to that degree in a man’s dream when—later on down the road—the odds were that these same BW would NOT get to reap the benefits of having helped make that man’s dream come true.

        The elders in my life told me to be very careful when someone is asking you to defer your dreams so they can achieve theirs.

        They felt (and I agree) that a person should always be mindful of their own goals and dreams, especially women, because they are expected to sacrifice for their families, and because they usually come out the worse compared to the man if the relationship goes badly.

        There’s a difference between support and self-immolation, so you don’t want to be foolish and conflate the two.

      • SweetIslandGirl says:

        I used to wonder about his phenomenon with men leaving the women that stood with them when they had nothing. Is it because they resent them? Or they feel like they want a better wife by their side? or have these women put themselves in the position of projecting a doormat to these men and they suddenly feel repulsed by the very support they once appreciated?

        In any case these are wise words. Its important to let a man be a man and if he whines like a baby about doing what he has to do to get where he needs to go then one is better off without him.

        Wise words. I like this. Please keep it coming.

        • SweetIslandGirl,

          You said, “I used to wonder about his phenomenon with men leaving the women that stood with them when they had nothing. Is it because they resent them? Or they feel like they want a better wife by their side? or have these women put themselves in the position of projecting a doormat to these men and they suddenly feel repulsed by the very support they once appreciated?”

          From the examples I’ve watched in real life, the husbands involved felt that they were entitled to do what they considered to be “trading up” (typically to a much younger woman) now that they’re “arrived.”

          Expect Success!

    • pioneervalleywoman says:

      Truth P:

      A lot of these women,The Gabby’s, have sexual value and don’t even realize it.
      Despite all of the negativity and hatred I witnessed some of these women deal with they were some of the most sexed women you’d meet.Most of them had plenty of sex partners.I think to myself, how could those girls buy the lies of males and believe they are completely worthless due to their looks when these same guys are sexing them?If those real life impoverished Gabby’s were so ugly and worthless they’d all be virgins.If those guys could they’d be having sex with someone else right?
      I wonder what ways could the Gabby’s have profited in dealing with men.If not at all, at best they could have cut all dealings with those men and not had sex or children by them.

      My reply:

      Never forget though, that there are plenty of men who will have sex with women whom they don’t like and whom they don’t find attractive, merely using them as warm bodies for sexual release or for whatever else they can get from the women.

      It is unfortunate, but the women might not even know any better.

      The key is that they are having sex with men who don’t give them real value and reciprocation.

      Women need to know the difference, but unfortunately, the women you describe as the “Gabbys” don’t know any better.

  17. Angelyca says:

    Hello Khadija, thank you for opening up an open forum post. I would like to use this opportunity to ask a question I wasn’t able to on an older post. I’ll have to become a quicker commenter!

    I also can understand where sometimes unfounded support of criminals was more acceptable in the segregation and lynching era. However, I imagine that even in that era, black people knew the difference between a Rosa Parks figure and a serial rapist or murderer. I bring this up because I don’t think that the racism of that era is what completely brought about this knee-jerk reaction nowadays. Of course, I don’t have any evidence on hand, just a hunch. I would like to be able to believe that common sense wasn’t at such a minimum back then as well.

    A minor point, but just something that piqued my concern.

    • Angelyca,

      You’re welcome! My older relatives believe that AAs lost their common sense during the 1960s. According to them, that was the point in time when large numbers of AAs began characterizing any and all Black prisoners and criminals as somehow being like political prisoners.

      This sort of confused thinking was encouraged by many of the so-called “grassroots” community activists—many of whom, like the Panthers and the Nation of Islam, were actively trying to recruit BM criminals into their organizations. At that point, much of the AA political rhetoric became criminal-centric, and catered exclusively to the desires of AA criminals. While totally ignoring the suffering of the mostly Black victims these Black criminals preyed on.

      So that’s the point when AAs suddenly couldn’t figure out the value and need for criminals to be PUNISHED for their crimes against other people. That’s the point when to even speak of just retribution became taboo among AAs. That’s when the only acceptable rhetoric among AAs became all about fake “rehabilitation.” Which totally ignored the fact that you can’t “rehabilitate” somebody who does NOT want to live like a civilized person. Not to mention that there are entire categories of criminals who can’t be rehabilitated, such as child molesters. Come on, now—when was the last time that somebody was talked out of their sex life? Some things can’t be fixed.

      Along with all of this madness came the rise of the slogans about so-called “nonviolent offenders.” Which has mutated to the point that somehow most AAs seem to believe that “nonviolent offenders” shouldn’t be punished or, God forbid, put in jail. Meanwhile, there are certain types of nonviolent crimes that effectively destroy the victim’s life—such as fraud against the elderly, the sick, and so on.

      AAs have become a criminal-centric people.

      From what my older relatives say, prior to the 1960s, AAs weren’t confused about the need for Black criminals (of ALL categories and types) to be apprehended AND punished. Since the 1960s, AAs have become a group of people who mostly have NO ethical compass and NO comprehension of right vs. wrong.

      Expect Success!

      • ak says:

        Khadija:

        You’re welcome! My older relatives believe that AAs lost their common sense during the 1960s. According to them, that was the point in time when large numbers of AAs began characterizing any and all Black prisoners and criminals as somehow being like political prisoners.

        Yep. This was the start of a lot of ugliness especially in once decent/half-decent black neighborhoods, as well as the start of uplifting criminals like Eldridge Cleaver and Ar-ruh Kelly. It gave birth to the ugly indifference black people have of not caring about certain black on black crimes where BW were the victims until the crime unfortuantely came knocking on THEIR door, or when they FINALLY called the cops and cursed because the cops took forever to get to their house.

  18. ak says:

    I’ve been asking myself the ‘cui bono’ question for while now actually. It always helps to remove gullible blindness and assumptions!

  19. Oshun/Aphrodite says:

    I started a dating profile on two websites – yesterday. Now I am somewhat overwhelmed as my profile is only 20% complete on each site and I have something like 30 communications on one and a lot on the other. I am bit overwhelmed bc I am busy offline, still figuring out the technology of both sites, navigating my way around them, and trying to sift through the communications etc.

    I wanted to know about the military men bc I have a number of direct messages from men in the Navy and Air Force. And I responded and now I am wondering should I have just not responded – if they are a bad choice.

    Regarding fetish: I can see both sides, but I can’t help but wonder if this is something that BW can and should use to their advantage. I think Evia hit the nail on the head when she said it all hinges on treatment and said WMs actions towards you. BW should be aware, but still use it to their advantage.

    • Zoopath says:

      My husband was in the Air force when we met however, he went to college and had paid off his loans before joining. He wanted something different on his resume before applying to MBA school. So he got to see the world (on my dime, as I like to remind him). So I think if you find a guy that has other markers of quality the military thing shouldn’t disqualify him. I wouldn’t marry a man who still owed time to the military, when I met my husband he was free to leave whenever he wanted to, which he did less than a year after we met.

      • Zoopath says:

        By my dime, I mean my taxpayer dime. I’m forever salty about our empire building.

      • Oshun/Aphrodite says:

        Thank you Zoopath. I am still kind of on the fence. After reading Khadija’s post above. I did think that the Tim McVeigh’s were few and far between, but all the connections she made regarding Blackwater and such…really have my head reeling.

        • Oshun/Aphrodite,

          I agree with ZooPath’s reply to you. I wouldn’t disqualify a man based on his being in the military (or law enforcement) ALONE. (In fact, I dated a few police officers in the past.)

          I’m just saying for women to be aware that the military is a skewed population, with plenty of nuts in it along with an extremely sexist internal culture. I’ll note that there are also a not insignificant number of BM gangbangers in the all-volunteer US military. I recall seeing news photos of Chicago-based Black gang grafitti spraypainted in places where the US Army had been in Baghdad

          However, there are some decent, normal, healthy, loving, lovable and quality men who are in the all-volunteer US military.

          Expect Success!

  20. lunanoire says:

    I used to worry a bit about fetishizing, but with time and observation, you can tell the difference between a person who likes you, including your [insert attractive characteristic] and a person who is looking for a warm body who has [insert attractive characteristic].

    The word “fetish” has been used by the mainstream media to apply to anyone they deem as less than. What we have as BW, in its many commonalities and variations, is beautiful! I especially love that we tend to age well when we take care of ourselves. That is something that can work well offline for those of us over 30.

    • Neecy says:

      I agree. Notice the term fetish is NEVER used to descirbe any male of any race who prefers or is attracted to WW. The term fetish is only reserved for minority women who are a threat. noticed this a loooong time ago.

      • Actually I’ve heard of black men’s attraction to white women described as a fetish, BY white women. Some of them, not all, but some have enough sense to be disturbed by it, and find it creepy. I’ve also heard white women’s attraction to black men described as same, again BY white women. I’ve even heard white women describe themselves as “black men fetishists.” For the most part, the latter is in an erotic context, but not the others.

  21. SweetIslandGirl says:

    I saw a entertainment news story of the DBR rappers Lil Wayne and Ray J recently pouring a bottle of vodka down the a** crack of a bent over BW at a club. First thought in my mind besides what the hell was “qui bono???

    This is a perfect example of a scenario where this question should be asked by this young woman who thought this was a good idea to bend over and degrade herself. I was disgusted and for a moment I asked myself how can this is happen post Nelly swiping a credit card down a womans a** crack and the outrage that came of it. I’m sure she is a broken woman of some sort to think this is ok

  22. Everybody,

    I see that with the volume of comments with this discussion, I won’t be able to keep up with the volume to respond on an individual basis to everything. So, instead, let me quote a few readers, repeat something I said in an earlier reply, and put another question out there for consideration.

    Karen said,

    I personally have never encountered this behavior and have worked exclusively with WM for “many” moons as I work in a technical area. On a private basis, I have also never experiences this behavior.

    Does it mean that this behavior does not exist – of course not, but I would also not want to paint a picture that behind every WM a possible “fetish” is hiding in the bush. At the end of the day, we must “vet” the people we choose to bring into our lives.

    I said,

    There’s also a much larger pool of racist WM who are therefore uninterested in having a substantive relationship with any woman of color. That type and degree of racist WON’T marry a BW. He also WON’T bother to put on a convincing charade of publicly courting a BW. As in the sort of public courting that is typically expected to lead to marriage. It’s not like this sort of thing is so hard to suss out. Not for a woman who’s paying close attention to the public signals being given or NOT given.

    Similar to how BW who think they’re the girlfriends or fiances of BM who have NEVER publicly introduced them as their girlfriends or fiances should know better.

    JoyousNerd said,

    I have seen the icky behavior Roslyn describes, and it is truly ugly. Any woman does need to have critical thinking skills to vet men. When racial dynamics come into play, she needs to be even more savvy. Sadly, from what I have seen most BW are so indoctrinated and accustomed to the shabbiest treatment that they will be unable to see the danger in one of these white men with poisonous ideas about BW and unhealthy interest.

    Evia said,

    Khadija, I am thrilled that you’re having the “watch out! wm have a fetish for y’all bw,” conversation. I even think this should be a whole book (written by someone out there) because a LOT of bw–who I’ve talked with re the topic of IR dating will wave that “watch out! wm want have a fetish for bw” flag. They are on a fetish-hunt and harbor from a mild to extreme degree of suspicion of any wm desiring them.

    Not even one bw has ever mentioned to me this “bw fetish” in connection with Asian, Hispanic, Arab men desiring bw, yet I’ve heard and read frequently where Hispanic men have made it clearly known that they like women with posteriors of larger dimensions. Some of these Hispanic men will mention bw in that context, and I’ve never heard any outrage from bw about that.

    So, this “bw fetish” accusation is one of several, aimed almost totally at wm. I’m convinced that this accusation against wm is actually a “COVER” for a profound amount of FEAR among AAs and some other blacks that if given a choice, the typical black woman will choose wm over bm. A LOT of blacks won’t admit that though. They can’t even discuss that. It’s too upsetting, even terrifying.

    If bw learn to VET men, they don’t have to be afraid of what ANY man has in the recesses of his brain. If a woman is always mindful and vigilant re the way a man TREATS her, that’ the key.

    (emphasis added)

    Here are my questions as I pondered these various points:

    • Is there ANY other group of women—other than AA women and similarly situated Western BW (African women don’t seem to have this particular paranois)—who consistently have these DEADLY SERIOUS “You better watch out for WM with a fetish!” conversations?
    • At what point do AA women (and similarly situated Western BW) join the REST of the women on this planet who are confident in their ability to suss out the “fetish” subcategory of WM creeps—the SAME way they can suss out other types of male creeps?

    It just occurred to me that it seems that AA women (and similarly situated Western BW) are the only women having frequent, sustained, and DEADLY SERIOUS “Watch out for WM with a ‘fetish'” vigilance fests. There are a handful of politicized Asian women who talk that stuff about worrying about WM with ‘fetishes.’ But the observed actions of Asian women tell another tale!

    Other women on this planet seem confident of their abilities to identify male creeps in general. So there’s no perceived need for them to have prolonged, extra-special, special-ed, DEADLY SERIOUS type warnings about WM with ‘fetishes’ about nonwhite, non-Western, whatever women. They talk about avoiding male creeps in general.

    When are AA women going to upgrade our vetting/screening abilities with men in general, and join the rest of the women on this planet in being able to sift through men from ALL groups?

    Expect Success!

    • Lynn says:

      Again, I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you, Khadija. As you and Faith have pointed out many times, BW’s life circumstances are different than any others on the face of this planet. Every other racial/women/ethnic group has the inherent advantage of not being viewed collectively as the bottom of the barrel on the social hierarchy. Am I saying there is no hope for us to find a worthy mate, or live abundantly, of course not. What I’m saying is sometimes we need to have to “go there” and have no holds barred conversations about our collective social circumstances.

      I’m not saying all WM have fetishes or will use BW, or that we can never have healthy families with them. What I am saying, is that collectively, EVERYONE is against BW. WW, BM, and yes, large portions of WM are all ok with the social construct as it is–BW on the bottom. Not only that, SOME (not all) WM, and nowadays most BM, will feel validated in their objectifying of BW and using us for their physical gratification. They have no compunction about the damage they inflict on us.

      The major difference in White America’s culture is the socializing of WM to be protectors and providers. And when you had the social changes feminism has done to WM, and the Civil Rights struggle’s changes to society, you have a certain subsegment of WM who view all women as equals, and they are perfectly comfortable in marrying BW and elevating us to society. THESE men are our target demographic. But there will always be bad apples in every barrel who have the potential to cause harm to BW.

      BW have been indoctrinated into having low expectations. Also, the reality is that BW have been affected with colorist attitudes. SOME (not all) BW will do a complete 180 turn and view all WM as some miraculous saviors to our collective. BM need to do continuous soul searching and self-esteem evaluations, to come to a place in their hearts where they truly believe they are worthy of a QLL mate. Many BW will say they have, but their actions may speak otherwise. Once BW have this belief they will be able to enforce higher expectations that are more in line with the rest of society and truthfully discern whether any man is a DBR.

      SO, on some level, I believe, this conversation is important for BW/BGs. However, it needs to be conducted adequately and not blown out of proportion. BW tend to see things in black and white, and this needs to be an eye opener as to how the real world operates–in shades of grey. Informing the next generation of the challenges of IRR without discouraging them is one of the most important gifts we can give BGs.

      As Melissa said in an earlier comment, the payoff is definitely worth it!

      • Lynn,

        You said, “Again, I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you, Khadija. As you and Faith have pointed out many times, BW’s life circumstances are different than any others on the face of this planet.”

        Oh yes, this is true. In the context of this conversation, there’s an additional point to be noted about all of that: No—no other group of women has to deal with AA women’s/similarly situated Western BW circumstances. So, no…these other women don’t have our particular mess to deal with. But some of them have their own mess to deal with that’s heavy duty.

        For example, what of the Thai women who are from a country that specializes in serving up its girls and women to freaky, foreign WM in the global sex trade and mail order bride trade? Somehow, significant numbers of decent, normal Thai women manage to vet/screen a range of foreign WM suitors without all this extra drama and alarms that AA women are encouraged to have in place.

        Also, what of the South Korean, Okinawan and Fillipino women who are coming from a context of many US servicemen stationed in these countries assuming that the local women are prostitues or “easy” to have? Somehow, large numbers of normal, decent women from these countries—where there are US military bases filled with often racist, WM troops from small-town, “heartland” USA—manage to sift through the foreign WM servicemen who approach them—and marry some decent ones.

        If these other women can sift through these foreign (to them) WM under external conditions (rampant sex trade, presence of US military bases filled with large numbers of American men who only view local women as prostitues, side pieces, etc.) that don’t encourage these foreign WM to have a lot of respect for women in their nationality…

        …so can AA women (and similarly situated Western BW). That is, if we make our minds up to learn how to effectively vet/screen men across the board.

        Expect Success!

      • Neecy says:

        But that is what Khadija is saying Lynn. that BW with a head on their shoulders who know how to vet properly will not fall victim to WM like this. That’s the whole point. There is really no other way around this besides avoiding WM (out of fear they are using you, fetishzing you etc)altogether which obviously is not the best option.

        If women in general are going to focus on and be fearful of the no Good men, then should they just stop dating men altogether? B/C Mr. Right is not falling out of the sky on the first try. That means more women need to learn the proper process of vetting. if BW want to avoid these issues, VETTING is the prime way to keep those WM creeps or any male creeps out of your life.

        Most males with bad intentions RUN from any woman who shows signs of not putting up with BS.

        Men usually know how ot pick their prey. So if BW are falling victim to WM like this, then its BLACK WOMEN who need to learn how to protect herslef by VETTING men, keeping her legs closed until said man has fully proven himself.

        The fact is BW have so much of this fear b/c BW were NEVER really raised to properly vett men. BW were never told the power that we hold as the woman. WE make the decisions on who we allow in our lives. they say women are the pickier choosier sex and we should be. its always been anything goes in the Black community with Black men when it comes to dating and relationships and sex. That is why BW put up with so much BS. They don’t and have never been told how to properly vet and use the power they have as women to keep certain men out of their lives.

        I was on a Player blog and this blog encourages men to play and game women. One male made a comment to the blogger saying he was a scumbag for lying and using women. you know what his repsonse was – that its up to WOMEN to decifer and protect themselves. that its not his job as a “man” to look out for the best interests of “stupid women”. Yes the guy is a scumbag but he has a point. Women have brains and they need to start using them. No man can force a woman into a relationship of abuse or being used unless said woman ALLOWS it.

        Most men are not sociopaths and are usually not patient or smart enough to stick around long enough to pretend to be something they aren’t – at least IMO. usually they keep it moving ot the next woman if they cannot get what they want.

        • Lynn says:

          Since when did I say we should “fear” WM, Neecy? I’m in a relationship with a WM. I’ve only dated Wm for the last 5+ years. Roslyn has been married 10+ years to a WM. That is NOT what either one of us is saying at all.

          As Rosyln points out below, we all know BW as a whole have not been socialized like other women. A lot of us are the “walking wounded”. A lot of BW have been hurt by BM AND WM, so why shouldn’t we talk about it and share our collective experiences? We can learn from each other in this area just like other areas. It starts with acknowleging the DBR WM, just like other men, and educating each other on how to vet them. WM are raised differently, so a BW new to IRR may not be able to recognize a more subtle DBR WM. Especially if said WM has had a lot of experience in dating BW.

          I, like most of us here, do not appreciate having my words taken out of context. I’ve reopeatedly shared in my opinion that BW dating and marrying QLL men who will protect and provide is the answer to most of our problems. This is going to be my last response to this rotation, because I feel it going downhill from this point on. I can respectfully agree to disagree with some of the ladies here.

          I’m always happy to see other BW happy in their love/marriage choices, and I love this blog because there are so many women on here who are happy. I just felt a duty today to do a ‘public service’ announcement to any young BW/BGs who may be lurking. Expanding your options to the global village is still the right thing to do. I want BW/BGs to be adequately prepared for this.

          • Neecy says:

            Lynn,

            I never said you claimed BW were fearful of WM. Not sure where you got that from. I stated that this general FEAR some BW have in crossing over b/c of potential underlying racist WM is something that can ultimatley be avoided by simple process of vetting.

            Believe me I am aware and feel many BW should not go into IR dating blindly. There are a lot of damaged BW out there and crossing over is not going to fix the issues they have within. i think most people who know me on these blogs can vouch that I am certainly not one to pretend as if WM are perfect or all have the best of intentions. but I am also aware that men can only get away with what a woman chooses to let them get away with.

            The sentiment of focusing on DBR WM to me reeks of fear b/c it seems as if BW are powerless against entering relationships with men like this – when that is far from the truth. BW do have power. Granted many don’t see or use it and that is the problem. DBR men are going to be around forever. its up to women to learn to look out for self first.

            There is obviously a fear with many BW to cross over b/c they do FEAR they are going to be seen as “sexual conquests” by many WM. Like others have said, yes those WM exist but many of those are transparent very early on in the process.

            i understand and agree that there are many “walking wounded” BW. But at some point BW have to put on their big girl panties and start looking out for numero uno. that is why blogs like this and Evia’s and others exist to educate and inform BW of the POWER we have as women in relationships and the proper ways to go about finding quality men who are going to enhance her life.

            The focus on DBR WM and men in general is a no brainer as they do exist. If anything, I would say BW are a lot more cautious of WM than they are of BM (who have shown more harm to BW in many ways) when it comes to relationships, using and abuse.

            My whole point in a nutshell is – if BW are vetting properly they are not going to end up with DBR men of any race. Period. they may come across them or possibly have to go on a few casual dates before figuring this out, but nonetheless, they can keep these types of men out of their intimate life by simple vetting.

            That’s the bottom line…..

      • Ali says:

        Every other racial/women/ethnic group has the inherent advantage of not being viewed collectively as the bottom of the barrel on the social hierarchy. Am I saying there is no hope for us to find a worthy mate, or live abundantly, of course not. What I’m saying is sometimes we need to have to “go there” and have no holds barred conversations about our collective social circumstances.

        I’m not saying all WM have fetishes or will use BW, or that we can never have healthy families with them. What I am saying, is that collectively, EVERYONE is against BW. WW, BM, and yes, large portions of WM are all ok with the social construct as it is–BW on the bottom.

        Ali –

        This is so deeply offensive. WHY do bw say this ‘bottom of the barrel’ stuff? According to who? It’s so offensive, and I see some bw who repeat this continuously – it’s like their mantra.

        What in the world makes you think this Lynn? What is motivating this idea? And can you stop repeating it, because it’s awful! I’ve never heard any guy say this.

        Khadija, I’d love to see a post on THIS – the’bottom of the barrel/totem pole’ women. HOW CAN WE GET THEM TO STOP SAYING THIS?

        WHY are they saying this? Where are they getting this from?

        From what I’ve seen in life, unattractive women are at the ‘bottom of the barrel’. In a world where a large portion of the ‘sexiest women’ are black – even though we’re only a tiny % of the population – where are these women getting this stuff? How many Asian women were on the “100 sexist women in the world” list by the last askmen. com poll – zero, I belive. What’s even more disturbing is the fact that they are in relationships w/ men of any color and saying this stuff. It speaks volumes about the power dynamic in the relationship.

        This is a post in in of itself . . . . . . . . .

        • Ali,

          Let me first emphasize that I’m NOT jumping on Lynn—I know that I’ve said (and continue to say) many, many things that others have found disturbing. 🙂

          But I will note that I also find the prevalance of that “bottom of the barrel/totem pole” collective SELF-description by AA women to be extremely disturbing.

          I don’t know where that came from; and I don’t know when that started up in big numbers. I don’t really recall hearing so many AA women use that phrase when I was a teenager or young woman in my 20s. I’ll have to meditate on when it was that I started hearing huge numbers of BW describing the BW collective in that fashion. I don’t know… [???]

          Expect Success!

          • Lisa99 says:

            Co-signing on a post on the “bottom of the barrel” self-description.

            I’ve mentioned before that I had to stop reading news sources from the “black perspective” because of the warped anti-BW mindset presented by the authors (not to mention those who leave comments).

            I’m finding myself more and more having to limit the types of BW-oriented message boards I visit as well for the reason listed above. I’m not all that old (99 is my college graduation year), but even the BW back then in all their black man loving glory were not saying, “We’re at the bottom of the totem pole,” or “We’re the least-desired women,” etc.

            But now, I can’t go for more than 3-4 posts in a particular thread on some BW message boards without someone saying this mess. And if anyone challenges that, then we’re being insensitive.

            The worst one I’ve heard? “We have to accept the crumbs of the dating world.”

            The women saying this, btw, are usually in their 20s… so something has DEFINITELY happened in the generation following mine.

            Look, I get that many BW have been conditioned to feel ugly, lesser than, etc… but continually repeating this, “bottom of the barrel” mess is ridiculous. At some point, you have to acknowledge your pain and then MOVE FORWARD.

            Some IR inclined BW will even make this point, saying that BW have to “work harder” to date WM because WM can choose whatever type of women he wants, and why would he go after the “antithesis of the American Dream” on his own? REALLY?

            Even at my lowest point in life (which we all have), I never bought the whole, “I’m at the bottom of the totem pole” thing. I wasn’t raised that way, no one taught me to be that way, but it’s amazing how so many BW WANT every BW to feel that way and will try to cut you if you tell them that you CHOOSE not to be at the bottom of anything.

            Okay, lemme stop…

          • Melissa Q. says:

            I agree, it is disgusting and this is extremely self-defeating. By using this as a mantra, you are reinforcing this idea. I know that there are many people who use
            BW as a stepping stone to ‘gain’ power, but I don’t think you should describe to this.

            In fact, I think it is the fault of BW for not ‘corecting’ and being proactive. Bw in the western world are in a peculiar position that is shady. We nevee realized or invested in our collective power, or realized that we are a powerful demographic. The black women that are being used don’t realize how beautiful and what attractive wualities they really have. I like it the way Zora Neale Hurston put it: “Well, you know whut dey say ‘uh white man and uh nigger woman is de freest thing on earth.’ Dey do as dey please.” (19.178-181)

          • Lynn says:

            No offense taken. I’ve said my viewpoint and now I’m happy to sit back and read the viewpoints of others. It takes a lot more to offend me. I’ve learned so much from BWE sites and I value the interactions we have here. I’m definitely at the point in my life where I can listen with humility.

            Also, I’m glad to hear so many BW state they have not encountered WM who fetishize (is that a word, LOL!) them. Though it has happened a few times to me, I’m glad a lot of BW did not have to go through such humiliating experiences. At the end of the day, the social upliftment of all AA BW is my goal. That starts with individual BW living better lives with QLL mates.

            Well, I got a business to run! I look forward to your next post, Khadija. BTW, what do I have to do to be put on your preffered readers list?
            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

            [Khadija speaking: Inshallah (God willing), I’ll email you later today about the “regular commenters” parameters. There are some things about the new policy about premium content that I’d prefer not to discuss publicly. :-)]

          • medley says:

            I may be off (probably am), but I
            first starting hearing that slur
            “bottom of the barrel” after articles and polls done about interracial dating. Who were the racio-gendered partners doing the most dating out. Supposedly, BW and AM were doing the least.
            That was conflated by others-aka
            Steve Sailor and the like – into meaning that those groups of folks were the `least desired`…
            That messaging was then picked up by Youtube posters,and others on various blogs. Particularly, the dating blogs….That’s my hunch anyway.LOL….

          • Ali says:

            First I want to say that the below post seems harsh, but it IS NOT directed at Lynn in any way – just at this new ‘bottom of the barrel’ phenomenon. So I hope it isn’t offensive to you Lynn.

            Khadija – you want to hear something odd? I’ve been dating all my life, and I only JUST started to hear the bottom of the totem pole’ stuff when I started going to bw sites – and yes, that includes BWE sites!

            Stupid me – I NEVER even knew I was supposed to be a loser, unwanted, etc. – all these years I’ve been happily dating men, and living my life to the fullest never heard that. If anything, a lot of the men I’ve met view bw as a special challenge and a prize, because we’re known for ‘only wanting bm’. So if I’m going out with a white guy, he figures he must be pretty special.

            NOW I hear it ALL THE TIME – and I notice that WW are starting to repeat it, on ‘feminist’ sites like Jezebel, they are starting to talking about the special ‘challenges’ bw face in finding someone to ‘overlook’ their race. Do the bw disagree? NO! They totally agree with the ww, and thank the ww for ‘finally’ understanding their special ‘pain’. SMH

            Do you realize that this is something that –literally – was unheard of among white people until bw started saying it a few years ago? It’s totally baffling to them – but they don’t want to argue, because what do they know? So they agree.

            It gets even creepier – I was on a blog for wm, and there were two bw there who were saying it! AND THEY WERE BOTH IN RELATIONSHIPS WITH WM! They said – ‘We’re at the bottom of the barrel, we have to take what we can get, nobody wants a bw, we’re the opposite of what men want . . . .on and on and on . . . ”

            One of the sites a wm asked for advice on why a bw didn’t respond when he flirted with her. They said ‘The bw you were talking to was probably in shock because nobody flirts with black women. We are the bottom of the barrel, nobody wants us, that’s why we are all alone. Then she went on to say – I am writing my thesis on how bw are unwanted’ I was like Huh? Guys flirt with me . . . . . .what are they talking about? And how are they in relationships if nobody wants them?

            Khadija – I know this sounds shocking but it is true. She is writing HER THESIS and it says BW are unwanted!!

            Several of the wm on another website objected vehemently to the ‘BW are unwanted message’ and started naming bw that they thought were beautiful and the BW REFUSED to believe them! Khadija, I wish I was lying.

            They said the men were just lying to make them feel better. On wm (wisely) said – “If you believe you’re at the bottom of the barrel, that’s we’re you’ll be.”

            The woman said he was ‘ignoring reality’. Then she started naming her ‘ugly’ body parts – nappy hair (nappy hair is ugly? news to me – white men always loved my afro). Big lips (big lips are ugly? since when? Look at all the ww paying for them.) It was frightening – and I don’t think she was a troll, I think she was a real black woman. WOW.

            I left the first thread where I read this stuff feeling nauseous – I felt awful for days. It was one of the very first time I had ever heard that, and several of the men said it was the first time they had heard it as well. Plus there might have been younger girls reading it. You can tell some of the guys were thinking . . . “well, I wanted to date a hot bw, but not anymore!! I don’t want to date the bottom of the barrel . . . .”

            Since you know more about this, I would love for you to do a post explaining the psychology of these women. The men were TOTALLY turned off. They were utterly revolted.

            WE NOW HAVE A LARGE NUMBER OF DAMAGED BW ROAMING FROM WEBSITE TO WEBSITE CONVINCING NON-BLACK MEN THAT THEY SHOULD NOT DATE US!

            To the point where they will fight with anyone – wm, bw, ww – who disagrees. If you disagree with them, you are the enemy and a liar – you can’t possibly be attracted to bw if you’re a wm. If you are attracted to bw, it’s because you are ‘willing’ to ‘go against the grain’ and ‘look past’ her ugliness. Or you’re just a sicko.

            For Real.

            One more example – They interviewed american bw on BBC World Service Radio on the american black man shortage, and one said that since we (bw) are not seen as attractive in this country, why would a wm choose us? Another said we should date ex-convicts – those are our options.

            Seriously.

            It s one thing to have self esteem issues, but why most they paint ME with that brush?

            Leave me out of it – they are tainting all of us with it! Just shout to the world ‘ I AM at the bottom of the barrel. Nobody wants ME ’

            Stop speaking for Ali! For one thing, it’s ludicris. For another – don’t women realize that men are competitive? Nobody wants to date someone who thinks she is a LOSER! Or they’ll date/sex that person if she’s hot, but not marry her.

            I included the link to the BBC interview because it was a breeze to find, but I warn you that it’s EXTREMLY upsetting and may make you sick. They did a two part series on ‘lonely bw’. The quote I mentioned is about 18 mintues in. If you want to delete this link, I’ll understand:

            [Khadija speaking: Yep, I deleted the link—I’m not trying to circulate the anti-BW poison any more than it’s already being spread around. Ali, thanks for understanding in advance. 🙂

            *Addendum*—since I can’t add any more reply threads to this.

            Well, this phenomenon that you’re describing of AA women spreading this “BW are the bottom of the barrel” anti-BW hate speech* to nonblack outsiders (many of whom have never heard such before) is yet more confirmation of how important it is for the Sojourners to distinguish ourselves from the “typical” AA woman. It reminds me of something that came up during an earlier conversation. I can’t remember which conversation, but I recall mentioning an experience that I’ve been increasingly having over the years: increasing numbers of nonblacks are assuming that I’m not African-American.

            It took my a while to figure out what was probably going on with that, because my features are very visibly Black. At first I though it might be my all-Muslim name. But then I realized the name situation wouldn’t explain why increasing numbers of other folks are assuming that I’m not AA. What I ultimately concluded is happening is that as AA women continue to run our collective image into the ground, then more people start to assume that any normal, feminine, cultured-acting BW they encounter must be something other than AA.

            As I said during that earlier conversation, at this point Sojourners need to run with that perception and MAKE SURE to distinguish themselves as a type of BW who is separate, apart and distinct from they “typical” AA woman who is doing a number of things that bring our image down.

            I had already concluded that it’s too late to repair the overall, collective image of the “typical” AA woman. What you’re describing only confirms to me that it’s too late to repair the overall, collective image. There are simply too many factions and people (mostly BM with the assistance of other individuals who believe they stand to gain from that tearing down of BW)—including large numbers of AA women themselves—working their fingers to the bone to drag our image through the mud.

            So, what’s left is for the Sojourners to carve out a separate, individual image for themselves. That’s why it’s so important for Sojourners to refrain from doing things (such as rallying around criminals, etc.; including BF criminals) that put their image squarely into that “typical” AA box.

            I hate that the situation has come to this, but it is what it is. We’ve reached the point that the vast majority of the overall anti-Black propaganda (and the worst forms of specifically anti-BW hate speech) is coming from AAs themselves. And now there are apparently large numbers of AA women who are compulsively running around spreading SELF-hate speech and ideology in the presence of nonblacks. The mind boggles.

            (*I call it “hate speech” because that’s what this propaganda is.)]

      • Faith Dow says:

        I don’t want anything attributed to me that detracts or distracts. Yes, BW and AAs in particular have a unique set of benefits and burdens to consider. It doesn’t have to be any more burdensome that other groups of women as long as BW are playing to win and making informed choices. We don’t need to be focusing on the potential when we already deal with numerous BM who abuse and use BW every day. Let’s just keep moving forward.

    • Zoopath says:

      I hope that When question was rhetorical because I haven’t the foggiest. I agree with you point, though. No other group of women scares themselves with the White fetish boogeyman, if only that were the worst fo our problems. It all comes down to vetting/screening. Evia’s such a good vetter you could probably plunk her down in a supermax prison and she’d find the one wrongfully convicted non-booty warrior in the whole joint in less than an hour. I’m already married but I would definitely want any future daughters to have access to her vetting newsletters. I should probably get one to have on hand for the future.

    • Lynn says:

      You know, it’s interesting that out of everything I said, the “Bottom of the Barrel” comment gets the most response. Someone even commented that I use this as a ‘mantra’ when it is the first time I’ve ever used this comment on this forum. Until this blog, I’ve rarely posted a comment on this site. Some people have alluded that I suffer from low self-esteem because I used it. All of that from one comment.

      Well, now I can say that I’m offended. Just because I use a certain phrase one time, I’m labeled as someone who broadcasts to the world BW are not worthy. I used that term on a forum geared towards BW and with BW as 90% of the audience. You cannot assume I’m using the term frequently or on more diverse forums.

      In any rate, all I did is reiterate what Khadija and Faith have said many times. COLLECTIVELY, we are not viewed worldwide as desirable women. Argue about the terminology all you want. I just find it interesting my message of vetting and communicating proper vetting to the next generation has not been acknowledged, except for one poster, Melissa, who I thank.

      I will definitely think twice about posting a comment showing another viewpoint on this forum. I also prefer being able to access only the ‘public’ posts, if the condition to having access to ‘private’ posts is that I have to comment frequently. I can’t believe a more nuanced opinion was slammed so effectively here.

      • Lynn,

        Since you’ve brought this up again, I’ll give a quick reply here instead of in an email.

        You said, “I also prefer being able to access only the ‘public’ posts, if the condition to having access to ‘private’ posts is that I have to comment frequently.”

        That’s perfectly okay. Free will is a very good thing. 🙂 With the New Year, I decided to start applying to this blog the core values that various BWE bloggers have been talking about for the past couple of years: vetting and reciprocity.

        In this context, reciprocity means that the premium content is reserved for those readers who choose to make a regular contribution to the conversations here by their regular participation.

        Vetting means that people who choose to endlessly lurk…

        …and who therefore are consistently refusing to offer reciprocity in exchange for whatever value they derive from reading the blog and other readers’ contributions via their comments…

        …are screening themselves out from access to the premium content. And that’s okay—free will is a very good thing. At any rate, most of the content will remain open and available to all.

        Expect Success!

    • Zoopath says:

      This is in reply to Ali’s comment:
      That was pure insanity, oh Jesus be an electrified razor-wired fence! I hope that you’re wrong about that being a BW, because that was some serious self-hatred. If someone thinks they’re the bottom of the barrel, which some BW do, at least “fake it till you make it”. What I mean by that is realize that proclamining your low status hither and yon isn’t going to get you out of the bottom on the barrel. Behave as if you are a catch until you start believing it for yourself

  23. Informing the next generation of the challenges of IRR without discouraging them is one of the most important gifts we can give BGs.

    As Melissa said in an earlier comment, the payoff is definitely worth it!

    And this is my only point, that we’re not dealing with women who have been socialized in a normal culture. We know this, we’ve acknowledged it about all manner of issues. Given that problem, I’m simply saying that it’s probably a good idea to be very precise in our language when we address this issue because it is an issue. Not because black women have made up some bogey man out of whole cloth because I’m sure some have. But because these men do exist. We can debate as to their number, but vetting them out is crucial. IMO, one of the best ways to do so is as I’ve previously stated: Avoid men who feel the need to denigrate other women when compliment you. Not out of some moral high road or out of a need to protect white women, but simply because this is a good sign of a sexist, misogynist white male. Avoid men who “compliment” you in a manner that would indicate that they expect you to have lower standards than other women.

    It’s not about huddling together like cattle in fear, it’s about looking at a situation realistically and being equipped to deal with whatever comes. I know black women who’ve gotten caught up with some of these types, the damage was deep and profound. We can never forget that in many cases we are talking to the walking wounded who have not been socialized like most women in the social norms of dating/mating. We’ve mentioned many times that many black women didn’t even date in college. Others have no idea about “dating” period as they’ve come up in the hook-up culture.

    • Lynn says:

      Amen, amen. I cosign 100% sister!

    • SweetIslandGirl says:

      I 100% agree. I look at the “BW are the bottem of the barrel” as a caution to make myself aware of whats happening outside of my perception. I believe knowing is half the battle so if I know how some people perceive me then I can use that to my advantage to seperate myself further, and make wiser decisions to open more doors to walk through and live well.

      I’m not offended by this at all. Taking offence throws up many walls that in turn will shut out the good information that is cautioning you to the danger ahead. I cant afford to lose the valuable info in the sauce of offence.

      Ive met DBR WM and WW who put down their own race or other races to pay me or BW in general a compliment. Thats a sign of a man who has motives not rooted in genuine interest and I dont stick around to allow him to unfold his true agenda. *chuckle* Sometimes people vet themselves out just by what they say to you and you dont have to lift one finger to pull it out of them. Listening and observing tells you many things. In response, I smile and keep it moving. Sometimes, (alot of times) its that easy.

    • lunanoire says:

      Based on this deeply problematic socialization, i would not be surprised if some BW were completely unaware when a respectful non-BM approached them, so they think it never happened in a respectful manner, but perhaps they are more likely to run into a disrespectful non-BM at an AA venue.

  24. Oh, and since some people seem to have a problem with the definition of the word fetish let me be clear about the kind of behaviors I’ve seen and/or had described to me. One black woman met a white man who had a collection of black Barbie dolls. Presumably, for most of us this would be a big flaming red flag (unless he happened to work for Mattel, which he did not). Another had a site up called “Slave to Black Women” or something to that effect. Now, again for most of us this would be an indication that there is something freaky going on with old boy. Another ran a site where they frequently denigrated white women in the most base manner, pretty much every post was filled with vitriolic anti-white woman screed. When I asked these women why they didn’t note these warnings when they encountered them the first said she thought the Barbie collection was flattering coming from a white man. The other didn’t even know that there is a bustling trade in the “black woman dominance” arena. And the third said she was so accustomed to the hatred directed at black women it was “refreshing” to see some directed at white women.

    WM troops from small-town, “heartland” USA—manage to sift through the foreign WM servicemen who approach them—and marry some decent ones.

    Or not. I worked domestic violence in a military town, plenty of these women wound up married to men who were essentially looking for slaves. We also have to keep in mind that many Asian women, foreign born and domestic have the same type fetishes for white men that many white men have for them. Many white men are looking for the “submissive” Asian female because of their sexist and misogynistic views. Many Asian women (both foreign born and domestic) look at white men as “marrying up,” after all they did conquer their native lands. Asian women who marry white men are looked at very favorably, and in many cases they are seen as status symbols. Their situation is markedly different from that of black women. This insistence on comparing the two is frankly unfair IMO. How can we say on the one hand, that other women’s situations are different from ours therefore we must be wary of taking their advice. While on the other hand encouraging black women to follow a model (Asian women) when their situation is wholly different from ours as well.

    • tertiaryanna says:

      Now, again for most of us this would be an indication that there is something freaky going on with old boy….When I asked these women why they didn’t note these warnings when they encountered them the first said she thought the Barbie collection was flattering coming from a white man.

      I know that you’ve faithfully recounted your experience, without embellishment, but I am hoping these women were not “all there” and not indicative of the average BM-oriented BW.

      I’ll admit that I was one of those very inexperienced, low-esteem, dateless wallflowers, who grew up w/o my father and therefore had no home role-model for masculinity.

      In spite of that, I find the behavior you mentioned to be extremely disturbing. It’s an appalling lack of basic common sense.

      • tertiaryanna says:

        Lynn

        When you mentioned this

        WM are raised differently, so a BW new to IRR may not be able to recognize a more subtle DBR WM.

        It reminded me of some issues I’d like to discuss again.

        Can we talk about developing a healthy sense of ethnic feminine awareness? So that a BW can understand the difference between what’s complimentary and what’s undermining?

        I am also thinking of this:

        EVERYONE is against BW. WW, BM, and yes, large portions of WM are all ok with the social construct as it is–BW on the bottom. Not only that, SOME (not all) WM, and nowadays most BM, will feel validated in their objectifying of BW and using us for their physical gratification. They have no compunction about the damage they inflict on us.

        I know that there are times that people are aggressively against BW. But sometimes it may just be a group looking out for their own interests, regardless of the casualties.

        I think it’s fair to distinguish when someone is targeting a BW, and when they’re not. But I think it’s hard to do that when our view of what we should be doing is defined by other people’s reactions, instead of our own desires and goals.

        It’s reaction instead of proaction. But being reactive is always a guessing game: your next move is predicated by someone else. Without an antagonist, you don’t move anywhere.

        I wonder if BW are so rarely trained on how to advocate for ourselves in our femininity and ethnicity that we don’t quite know what it’s supposed to be? So we find ourselves losing when we don’t need to, or fighting the wrong battles.

        I’m thinking here of Roslyn’s comment: “she was so accustomed to the hatred directed at black women it was “refreshing” to see some directed at white women.“. The BW is senselessly fighting against a WW woman, instead of looking out for her own interests.

        I’d like to talk about how to advocate for ourselves, independently of what other people may or may not be doing. If we did that, then when we meet someone who is not in alignment with our goals, we can just step aside and keep it moving if we can’t get what we need.

        Sometimes I think this way about the whole “DBR” dialog. I know it’s important to talk about that, but I wonder if some of us know what it means to uplift ourselves, irrespective of what anyone else is doing. Or what a healthy relationship looks like from our contribution, as well as his.

        For example, if every DBR male was magically made into a QLL one, would we, in our own persons, be any different in romantic relationships than what we are right now?

        What are our particular needs in a relationship as BW (if there are different needs?) Do we know ourselves well enough to set the boundaries that would allow us to protect ourselves from bad relationships, regardless of the reasons why they’re bad?

        I don’t think it’s feasible to make a list of all the different ways a woman can be taken advantage of. So I wonder if we could also look at this in a pro-active, not reactive stance.

        I’m straying off topic, but I feel like sometimes the issues about what men are or are not doing is a convenient distraction from developing our own critical skills in relationships.

      • Neecy says:

        T,

        I often wonder how much of these issues are women who ignore the obvious. Too many times in society women are so badgered with feeling they need to “keep a man” at any expense so many women put up with a lot of BS until it reaches its boiling point.

        Often times our buddies or friends or acquantences won’t go into detial about the things they overlooked or saw early in the relationships and then when the fit hits the shan its like they were completely blindsided by said man. i don’t believe that is the case MOST of the time. i think some women throw away their common sense when dealing with men for a variety of reasons. When they finally come to their senses they stuck around so long and put up with so much they do become damaged.

        So sometimes I do have to wonder how much of these issues could have been avoided by simply vetting and using common sense. Now i am not saying the men are not responsible for being scumbags, but they are out there looking for women who are going to overlook most of that. Women need to always be reminded that in a patriarchial society/world men tend to look out for their best interests first. Which means that women need to be one step ahead in looking out for ours.

    • Roslyn,

      Again, we agree to disagree.

      You said, “Or not. I worked domestic violence in a military town, plenty of these women wound up married to men who were essentially looking for slaves.”

      Since you brought up the wife-beaters in the US military, I’m going to be blunt. I would expect there to be a greater frequency and amount of various types of dysfunctions among modern day (volunteer) US service members. Because they’re drawn from a skewed population of people. A population that’s skewed in several negative ways.

      From my perspective, there are some reasons for a woman—any woman—to be skittish about military men, similar to what’s often wrong with men who work in law enforcement. [May God rest my uncle’s soul. He was a Chicago Police officer who was an example of what’s wrong with a lot of men in law enforcement in terms of how they treat women.] The military and law enforcement (I would also add the fire department to this category) are profoundly sexist subcultures. Similar to what I’d expect is the case among professional athletes. Even a man who doesn’t start off as a creep is surrounded everyday by other men in his field who are at minimum creeps and vicious sexists, and at worst are wife-beating, wife-raping, and sometimes wife-killing monsters.

      Be that as it may, that does not mean that every single one, or even most of these foreign Asian wives ended up with an American serviceman wife-beater/monster. There are some normal, healthy, loving and lovable quality men left in the US military. And I would think that more than a few of these Asian women have managed to marry some of the normal, healthy, loving and lovable quality men who are in the US military.

      You said, “We also have to keep in mind that many Asian women, foreign born and domestic have the same type fetishes for white men that many white men have for them….Many Asian women (both foreign born and domestic) look at white men as “marrying up,” after all they did conquer their native lands. Asian women who marry white men are looked at very favorably, and in many cases they are seen as status symbols.”

      First, I don’t care if Asian women have a ‘fetish’ about WM. What does that matter? If this is true, at least Asian women’s ‘fetish’ is working for them and for the improvement of their material circumstances. Which gets to my next point—the Asian women from these countries who marry WM generally ARE moving up—they’re moving UP in their material and economic surroundings. There’s nothing wrong with that.

      You said, “Their situation is markedly different from that of black women. This insistence on comparing the two is frankly unfair IMO. How can we say on the one hand, that other women’s situations are different from ours therefore we must be wary of taking their advice. While on the other hand encouraging black women to follow a model (Asian women) when their situation is wholly different from ours as well.”

      Here are my points of disagreement with how you’re characterizing the conversation:

      (1) I never said for anybody to “take advice” from Asian women. Asian women are NOT trying to advise AA women about anything. They’re certainly NOT trying to advise AA women about the strategies they’ve successfully used to turn their situation around. Individually or collectively. In fact, I have the feeling that they really don’t want to see AA women study or, God forbid, mimic any of their successful moves.

      Like women from many other non-AA groups, they probably prefer that AA women stay stuck on “Watch out for the WM With a ‘Fetish'” Boogeyman!” high alert. That attitude leads to less competition that they have to deal with coming from AA women.

      (2) I agree that Asian women’s situation is markedly different from AA women’s situation. However, I think it’s important to note some of the disadvantages that these Asian women (at least the ones in the countries I mentioned earlier) have prevailed over. Now, if you don’t feel that Asian women have collectively prevailed over the negative public image and circumstances they were facing oh, say…40-50 years ago (when many if not most White Americans perceived these wives to be prostitues who had been hanging around US military bases), then please feel free to ignore the parts of the conversations that mention Asian women. While those of us who do see value in examining that angle discuss those details.

      I happen to believe that Asian women have made GREAT strides in how they’re perceived by non-Asian men, in particular how they’re perceived by prominent WM, over the past 4-5 decades. Unlike WW who have always been prized by men outside their own racial group, Asian women have collectively had some negative images and perceptions to overcome.

      (3) Since I believe that Asian women have made GREAT strides over the past 40-50 years in turning around an extremely negative collective image and perception about them, I believe there’s great value in AA women studying the methods Asian women used to create this turnaround.

      Anyone who feels there’s no value in studying the methods that Asian women used to turn their situation around is free and welcome (as always) to ignore this portion of the conversation. And let those of us who do see value in that sort of analysis examine that angle.

      (4) As far as I’m concerned it IS “fair” to insist on AA women studying winning examples from other women of how to individually and collectively overcome some mess. It’s perfectly fair to insist on studying successful examples. No, Asian women’s mess does not have the same form or origin as our mess, but it’s still an example of how a group of women worked around some heavy-duty mess.

      AA women have a choice in the 21st century:

      AA women can continue to sit around making excuses for why—unlike women from every other ethnic group/race on this planet—we “can’t” be expected to learn how to effectively screen ALL types of men. Or, we can take what’s useful from how another group of women solved some of their heavy-duty image and opportunity problems (while discarding the rest).

      Expect Success!

  25. Truth P. says:

    Since this is an open forum I’d like to take the time to debunk a popular anti-single black mother myth.I normally never take up for these women but I feel the need to say a few words in defense of the good single black mothers such as my grandmother who was left to raise her children alone following an abusive marriage.

    single black mother myth that needs to be done away with>black male criminal deviants are a result of being raised by their single mothers.

    Having grown up in an all black residential area and having visited many surrounding all black residential areas I know for a fact that young black male criminals ARE in fact being raised by older black males despite their mothers being single.In every black neighborhood I’ve been to there has always been men who were in and out of jail/drug dealers/users and abusers influencing and even guiding the lives of young black boys.
    Not to mention many of them listen to rap music.They have father figures but they are toxic.The good single mothers I knew,including my grandma, had to deal with telling their son to do what’s right and their son would still follow after his no good friends and older morally corrupt black males.

    Even famous morally corrupt rapper the Camel and infamous boxer/ear biter were raised by other morally corrupt black men despite their mother’s either being absent altogether or being a single parents.They admit this.Even a well known hypocritical deceased rapper said in a song “momma sent me to go play with the drug dealers”.His mother sent him outside to play and he saw mostly black male drug dealers doing all kinds of foul stuff and making money at it.Deceased rapper idolized drug dealers and thugs and eventually followed after them in spite being taught to do better by his mom.

    I only mention this because every time someone says something in regards to black male dysfunction there will be those males who will say “I bet he was raised by a single mother”, so as to solely blame the mother for creating a monster and dodge the reality that black men influence each other in very negative ways most of the time.

    I must add that single motherhood is non beneficial so avoid it at all costs.I cringe when I think of birthing my own enemies and caring for them alone and then having them back stab me and blame me for their and/or their absent fathers shortcomings.

  26. miss cosmic says:

    I’ve been trying to post replies but since I’m using my phone it has been a challenge.
    I just want to say that african women in africa (I don’t know about those in the diaspora) D0 have conversations about the fetish that white men might have for black women. That said, because of the economic factors involved, it is usually agreed that the pay-off (a relatively good life) is worth the risks. When I started dating my now husband, people actually warned me about ‘losing out on a good thing’ just because of some oddities: it was assumed that he must have a fetish of some sort -why else would a white man want a black woman? No one ever bothered to ask if this was actually the case or not.
    The older women in my family particularly were sure to tell me not to ‘stress’ about anything as long as he was ‘taking care of me.’
    By the same token, its widely accepted that black girls only ever date/marry white men for the economic benefits. White men are, the myth goes, not as well-endowed as other races, but again the pay-off is worth the lack of sexual satisfaction. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve been asked how I ‘manage’ in the face of such ‘starvation’. Again, I am warned not to mess up a good thing.

    Also, when I met my husband (a foreign white man) he was over 40, gainfully employed and had never been married. Initially I gave him the side-eye: why fly halfway across the world for a wife, why single at that age? I asked thess questions and got answers that I evaluated in light of his actions and – well, I married the man. He introduced mt to the women in his family who ‘vetted’ me in the form of questions about how we met and my background. They seemed to be normal ‘get to know you’ sorts of questions, but I could tell they were suspicious of MY motives. Which is to be expected. His brothers were suspicious of nothing, they had very little to say when they found I know next to nothing about any sport, lol.
    All that to say this: each man should be evaluated as an individual- isn’t that what we want them to do for us? We want to be separated from the hood-rats etc based on our individual worth and I think we need to stop stereotyping men and view them as individuals too. Most women are able to suss out DBRs after one or two conversations, aren’t we? Yes, we’ve been fooled, but I think we need to be wary of ‘missing out on good things’ due to stereotyping.

    A point of interest: most black women I know who want to marry/date out prefer foreign white men as local white men are ‘known’ to be racist to the core.

    These are very important conversations and I for one am honoured to be able to participate.

    Khadija, you’re making me really think about ‘stuff’, this is a superb post, really thought-provoking. Also, thank you for the openness you foster here, in terms of allowing views that differ from your own to be expressed.

    Be blessed
    🙂

    • Miss Cosmic,

      You’re welcome! And thank you for sharing your experiences as an African woman! It’s good to find out how these sorts of conversations are playing out in other settings in other countries.

      You said, “I just want to say that african women in africa (I don’t know about those in the diaspora) D0 have conversations about the fetish that white men might have for black women. That said, because of the economic factors involved, it is usually agreed that the pay-off (a relatively good life) is worth the risks.”

      “The pay-off (a relatively good life) is worth the risks” seems to be the consensus conclusion among non-AA women of color.

      May you also be blessed!

  27. Yellow Moon says:

    This is an intensely interesting and fascinating subject to me. I have heard these types of warnings for decades from black women, and black men, in regards to white men being attracted to us sisters.

    Like some of the other women have commented here, I have also not run across a white man that had a fetish for black women; in fact, most of my white boyfriends had no previous experience with black women before me and no experience with black women after me. I was the black woman exception in their romantic lives. And I’ve dated interracially for years. So I think I can safely say that those men did not have a fetish for black women.

    Howeever, I do have experience of a sort in terms of dealing with men that have a particular fetish as I am what is referred to generally as “stacked”. In fact I’m really stacked, very big up top. I quickly become very skilled at identifying men early who were interested in me only because of their overwhelming desire for my breasts. And there are a lot of those guys around. You develop your own sonar for these guys, and after awhile you can spot them a mile away. It’s the things they say, they way they look at you (and your boobs), etc. It’s the same for all women like me, no matter what color they are – you get adept at identifying these guys and you just shut them down.

    I mean, I sure as hell don’t mind my significant others (and only them!) admiring and desiring my girls, cause they are impressive, and that’s what they’re there for (my SO that is), but I’m not interested in a guy that is single-minded about why he is with me, and that single-mindedness is all about my breasts. You know what I mean? I am much more than just my chest, and call me crazy, but I want a guy that realizes that as well.

    I am in agreement with the other comments here that many black women still need to develop sonar/radar about men in general, whether it’s in the service of detection of black fetishism, a freeloader, a wife-beater, a drunk or drug addict, a gambler, a loafer, a control freak, a momma’s boy, a religious zealot, etc. These men exist in every race, including white men.

    And just because I haven’t met white guys with a black woman fetish doesn’t mean they’re not out there. After all, I’m a sample size of only 1. But, I think they’re a sliver of the population of white men, and some enhanced radar on the part of alert black women should short-circuit most interaction with these weirdos.

    Black women as a group don’t have these intuitive vetting skills simply because they’ve been force-fed a steady diet of no-good men, and they’ve been told that this situation is their lot in life; this is as good as it gets for a black women. So they’ve become very fatalistic about the men they end up with, they say things like, “It’s all in God’s hands” or they express the sentiment that it’s a black women’s fate to to suffer at the hands of their men, whether that suffering is physical, mental, emotinal, financial, etc.

  28. Evia says:

    As some of you are saying, the overwhelming majority of men are VERY obvious and creepy men are even more obvious. Men who are in it just for sex don’t spend more than a minute with a woman who’s not putting out.

    Why aren’t more bw keeping their legs closed? And is there anything that we can realistically do to keep their legs closed? I tell bw all of the time what I believe with every fiber of my being: that bw have virtually as many options as any other women IF they play their cards right. But let’s face it. A lot of bw do NOT want to be patient and take the time to learn how to play their cards. They want instant and constant attention or instant gratification.

    Any woman who doesn’t have at least a fair understanding of how to vet men, especially these days, should NOT be mingling with men at all. It is literally a game of russian roulette these days.

    @Zoopath re:

    Evia’s such a good vetter you could probably plunk her down in a supermax prison and she’d find the one wrongfully convicted non-booty warrior in the whole joint in less than an hour. I’m already married but I would definitely want any future daughters to have access to her vetting newsletters. I should probably get one to have on hand for the future.

    LOL! As someone said above, most playa men know who to go after. I was never much bothered by playa men because they knew they’d be wasting their time. Too many bw are way too softhearted and compassionate and want to give any man a chance or want to be fair with bm. SMH

    Just teach your daughter common sense, which involves ALWAYS looking out for her interests first and foremost, promoting and protecting what’s good for herself FIRST. So if a man wants to have sex on the first day he met a woman or soon after, how is it looking out for her interests for her to have sex with a STRANGE man???? He’s a STRANGE man until she’s known him and observed him for a while!

    Even MOST QLL men want to have sex immediately, but it doesn’t mean that just because he wants to or even IF she want to, that she should do it. She should NOT–because that could easily jeopardizes her safety, her future. Why would she risk her life, her future for just a few minutes (if that much) of pleasure with a stranger?

    This is why so many of these women walk away from these encounters wounded. It damages them each time they allow that to happen to them.

    I don’t want to give anyone the impression that I’ve written the book on vetting because I have NOT. Vetting is mostly about common sense, but a woman also has to feel that she deserves to be treated well; she has to feel she is worthy of living well. So vetting is both comprehensive, yet very simple. The real issue is how to get women to believe they should be respected and treated well.

  29. First, I don’t care if Asian women have a ‘fetish’ about WM. What does that matter?

    It matters because you’re using Asian women as an example of women who’ve achieved what black women want. But given that most black women don’t have a fetish for white men, their circumstances are again, markedly different. There are barriers that Asian women are willing to overlook because of their fetish. Other women without a similar fixation on white men as a status symbol might be unable or unwilling to overlook that. Asian women in seeing white men as a status symbol gain significantly more benefit from marrying white than other women who don’t have the same beliefs. Thus the costs/benefits analysis is not the same.

    Be that as it may, that does not mean that every single one, or even most of these foreign Asian wives ended up with an American serviceman wife-beater/monster.

    I never said they were. I was merely pointing out that a lot of them do. And again, I reiterate, this isn’t limited to military. My previous home in Huntsville was full of scientists and engineers. Lot’s of these men are married to Asian women as well. And the domestic violence rates are appalling. Particularly with foreign born Asian women, but with domestic as well.

    Which gets to my next point—the Asian women from these countries who marry WM generally ARE moving up—they’re moving UP in their material and economic surroundings. There’s nothing wrong with that.

    There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that except that it’s diametrically different from black women’s position. Again, having gained a status symbol it might be worth the trade, given that black women gain no such status symbol it might not be.

    Now, if you don’t feel that Asian women have collectively prevailed over the negative public image and circumstances they were facing oh, say…40-50 years ago (when many if not most White Americans perceived these wives to be prostitues who had been hanging around US military bases), then please feel free to ignore the parts of the conversations that mention Asian women.

    I think Asian women are benefitting from one thing more than any other, white men’s sexism and anger at the women’s movement. They’re looking for submissive women. Again, this is totally different from black women’s situation. White men who are looking for a “submissive” woman are highly unlikely to look at a black woman. Have Asian women moved up economically. Most assuredly. Has the public perception of them as submissive Suzy Wongs willing to trade her virtue for $5 changed? I’m thinking not so much. Trading on stereotypes can be quite dangerous and debilitating. I think many Asian women are angry and bitter about it, and they talk about it quite frequently and openly.

    • Neecy says:

      Roz,

      one of the biggest benefits I have seen that Asian women (at least American AW) have is that they are generally protected. And I believe that is an end result of them marrying up and with powerful WM. We can all see what a lack of protection garners for any group of women if we look at the current state of the Black female population. its not pretty.

      I do believe BW have to understand what it means to “use what we got to get what we want” And better believe WW and AW have mastered this. Now I am not saying that in a sexual manner, but BW do not and have not utilized the very things that give us an advantage b/c we do spend a lot of time worrying about the creeps and not focusing on the quality White men who can and will enhance our lives if we just lighten up a little.

      And yes I have been guilty of being one of those BW who always focused on the negative. Each day i am working on my own negative thoughts and when i confront them and come to my senses I realize that sometimes we BW are too overly cautious about Non BM b/c of some experiences we may have had or have been brainwashed into thinking.

      but at the end of the day, those men aren’t going anywhere and the only way around it is to focus more on proper vetting and less on worrying about DBR WM – b/c they will not get far with any BW who is vetting properly. it shouldn’t even be a concern -unless they are forcing themselves PHYSICALLY onto BW.

      I think its strategic for BW to be thinking on the protection tip. WE NEED IT from men in the global village. FOR REAL. And those quality men will even protect us from the scumbag DBR WM and others if enough of us are married to and dating them.

      that is one thing that I find Western White males do. They police each other when it comes to women they love and want to protect. Right now, i believe those quality WM may be indefferent to so many BW b/c BW keep shooting themselves in the foot by making these declarations on “why a WM could never do anythign for them” and always freedom fighting for the Black race.

      • one of the biggest benefits I have seen that Asian women (at least American AW) have is that they are generally protected.

        Are they protected? I would find it hard to believe that women who are objectified to the degree that Asian women are could possibly be protected. You might want to read the article below. I would almost think it was written about black women.

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jaemin-kim/lets-call-it-what-it-is_b_163698.html

      • Sorry, I mean to include this quote from the comments in the article I linked above.

        About porn culture: a 2002 scholarly research article on violent porn sites (that is, “rape sites”) show that 60% of these sites depict Asian women victims. No other racial/ethnic group was prominently depicted enough to be worth any notice, wrote the authors. This is interestin g “proof” that something is going on in society today that make Asian women the target of violent sexual fantasies — a good indication that they also are the specific targets of actual rape and other sex crimes. (i.e. trafficking, forced prostitution or “white slavery”).

        In a word there is no safety in being objectified or fetishized. Asian women’s blues may not be like ours, but I’ve talked to enough of them to know they’ve got some pretty bad blues of their own.

        • YMB says:

          *************************************************
          Khadija- please delete my previous comment where I forgot the closing bracket! 🙂
          ************************************************

          According to the US Bureau of Justice Statistics, the sexual assault rate BW experienced 2001-2005 was more than 3 times that experienced by AW (page 3, table 2). I think that says more about who is experiencing a true lack of protection.

          This is not the only area where the internet/mass media representations of AW doesn’t seem to match up with reality– Asian women have far less representation in fashion magazines and mainstream advertisements compared to BW, almost to the point of being invisible but yet they still manage to show up on the radar as valued romantic partners for WM.

          • Robynne says:

            ‘Asian women have far less representation in fashion magazines and mainstream advertisements compared to BW, almost to the point of being invisible but yet they still manage to show up on the radar as valued romantic partners for WM.”

            That’s probably why they are doing so well. Asian women fly under the radar in the media, and thus avoid negative stereotypical portrayals, unlike bw – who are presented as shrewish, overweight etc – not in a positive light. I really would prefer that bw were ignored by the media if the best they can do is depict caricatures. There are very few positive images to balance the negative depictions.

          • ak says:

            I have said what you said about the AW on other blogs also for SO long now. I don’t know why BW sometimes can’t put two and two together. Because Hollywood isn’t showing you any love, doesn’t mean that you can’t get a quality man of any race. Don’t forget that black people themselves have to make their own quality uplifting media, if that’s what they want to see as no one else will do it for them, and of course must be the same for Asians, I mean look at Bollywood.

            I haven’t seen Lucy Liu in so long, I begin to wonder if she’s dead even though she’s very pretty and her portrayal in movies and TV go refreshingly against the grain. People magazine, Hello! magazine, Us magazine, etc. etc. none of them follow her, although some celeb whites also manage to keep most of their private life off the radar on purpose, sometimes. But I’m sure she’s either married or at least getting plenty of dates!

    • Roslyn,

      It seems to me that you’re stereotyping Asian women’s situation. There’s more than one situation. Not every (or necessarily most) WM who are married to Asian women were looking for “submissive” wives. Not every (or necessarily most) Asian women who are married to WM are oppressed. It sounds like you’re conflating the experiences of Asian mail order brides and poor Asian immigrant wives with those of Asian wives from other economic and social backgrounds.

      I also think it’s stereotyping to characterize the masses of Asian women who are married to WM—without making any distinctions in terms of individual Asian women’s economic and social backgrounds—as overlooking barriers “because of their fetish.”

      You said Asian women have a ‘fetish’ for WM. I haven’t bought into that bit of stereotyping. I don’t know what Asian women have—they might simply have a strong preference (or ‘fetish’—chuckling) for living well and for whoever is best positioned to provide that for them. {more chuckling} I don’t know, and I don’t particularly care.

      It seems like you’re painting—-with a wide and sweeping brush—Asian wives’ circumstances with WM in an overwhelmingly negative light. An overwhelming negative light that’s probably not accurate. Not accurate in the overarching sense that you’re characterizing all of this. Yes, the Asian mail order brides are most likely oppressed by their WM husbands. [And also oppressed by the Asian husbands from other nationalities that purchase these women.]

      But that’s the mail order bride experience. Is this type of oppressive trade-off the experience of the typical degreed Asian (or Asian-American) woman who is married to a WM? Probably not. Asian women from other economic and social tiers aren’t oppressed like the mail order women. The typical degreed Asian woman who is married to a WM is not living like a mail order bride. To put it bluntly, she doesn’t have to—she has other viable options.

      The everyday Asian women—who are peers—that I see in my work and social environment who are married to WM appear to be living more or less like White women. They’re not particularly “submissive.” I’ll say this: they’re generally more meticulous than their “average” WW social peer in terms of maintaining a feminine public demeanor. In other words, no public cursing, no public rowdiness, etc.

      My bottom line is this: Anyone who feels there’s no value in studying the methods that Asian women used to turn their situation around is free and welcome (as always) to ignore this portion of the conversation. And let those of us who do see value in that sort of analysis examine that angle.

      Expect Success!

  30. Yellow Moon says:

    “I think Asian women are benefitting from one thing more than any other, white men’s sexism and anger at the women’s movement. They’re looking for submissive women.”

    Perhaps. I can agree that many white men choose Asian women for these reasons, although many do not.

    BUT – I don’t know how it is with the Asian women you know, but the ones I know are not submissive after they’re married. They run their households with an iron fist encased in a velvet glove. They tend to be pretty toguh about what they want, whether it’s with their husbands or their children.

    Is this bait and switch? Do they simply do what they do while being courted in order to accomplish their life/family/financial goals?

    • Karen says:

      “Is this bait and switch? Do they simply do what they do while being courted in order to accomplish their life/family/financial goals?”

      That is something to perhaps consider. Each person must decide their own strategy/tactics to achieve their personal goals. Whether it is a “bait and switch” or using their feminine skills to succeed could be debated but it is worth taking note.

  31. But that’s the mail order bride experience. Is this type of oppressive trade-off the experience of the typical degreed Asian (or Asian-American) woman who is married to a WM?

    Who said anything about mail-order brides? I most assuredly have not. Sure, I’ve counseled mail-order brides, but most of them were Eastern European and/or Russian. Most of my encounters with Asian women are women who are born here in the States. As far as I know the most popular places for mail-order brides right now are the former Soviet republics.

    Most American servicemen who marry foreign born Asian women are sailors. I never worked on a Navy base, so most of my experience isn’t with that. I have a lot more experience with domestic Asian women than with foreign born. Also, as I said, I also worked with women in my former hometown which is full of engineers and scientists, fields that are heavily Asian. There is also a university in my town that draws a lot of scientists/engineers. Companies such as NASA, SAIC, Lockheed, etc… are located there as well, thus we had a lot of Asians. Most of them domestic born, and most who had gone to West coast schools.

    You said Asian women have a ‘fetish’ for WM. I haven’t bought into that bit of stereotyping.

    I say that many of them have a fetish for white men because I’ve talked to dozens of them about this issue and as a trained social scientist I know a fetish when I see one. It’s not like they’re keeping it a secret, they’re pretty blatant about it. I saw an interview with the reporter Ann Curry once where she mentioned in passing how proud her mother was that Ann too had gotten her “big American guy.”

    It sounds like you’re conflating the experiences of Asian mail order brides and poor Asian immigrant wives with those of Asian wives from other economic and social backgrounds.

    No, I’m not. I know Asian women with PhDs who are married to white men who’ve beaten the all living hell out of them when they discover that the submissive Asian woman is primarily a myth. That’s why I say it’s crucial that we be careful when we throw words like “fetish” around and encourage women to be accepting of such. Fetish is a barrier to intimacy. Fetish means you’re an object and as an object you can be easily disposed of when you no longer fulfill the role designated for you.

    It seems to me that you’re stereotyping Asian women’s situation.

    Of course I am, but then so are you. You can’t say on the one hand that Asian women take advantage of their stereotypical image, then chastise me for pointing out that while this might be true, that image can be both dangerous and demeaning.

    Is this bait and switch? Do they simply do what they do while being courted in order to accomplish their life/family/financial goals?

    Of course, and this is when the domestic violence occurs.

    • Roslyn,

      This is my final rotation with you about these issues, because this is becoming nonproductive. AND repetitive. We’ve hit several agree to disagree points. I’m not going to let those points silence me from pursuing questions and analysis that I believe is useful.

      All along,you’ve sounded extremely heavily invested in “proving” an oppositional view to the thrust of the conversation. And also extremely heavily invested in silencing several of the thoughts being pursued in this particular conversation. I don’t understand any of that. Because when I feel that people are in error, I leave them in their error past a certain point. Like I’ve been saying all along, if you see no value or accuracy in specific parts of the analysis that others find value in during this conversation, then you’re free and welcome to ignore that part of the analysis.

      You’re not going to be able to silence this conversation about what some of us believe are the mostly WW-concocted origins of the bulk of AA women’s ‘fetish’ paranoia. Nor will you be able to silence the analysis of how some of us believe Asian women made great strides in turning their situation around.

      First, you were apparently heavily invested in “proving” that the widespread AA women paranoia about The WM With A ‘Fetish’ Boogeyman is justified, and did not originate from WW-created inception. Meanwhile, NOBODY denied the existence of this specific type of WM Boogeyman.

      What some other women in the conversation—from a variety of age ranges (for example, Karen is in our age range and has always worked in a technical field surrounded by mostly WM; while Ali and others are younger) and experiences—have been saying is that:

      (1) That this particular, specific type of WM Boogeyman is a much smaller subset of the much larger group of sexist and/or racist WM who dislike women in general.

      (2) That a large number of the AA women who are spreading these Watch Out For The WM With A ‘Fetish’ Boogeyman alerts have NEVER socialized with WM. In real life, this is what I’ve noticed about the AA women who are frantic to spread the warning about that particular specific type of DBR-WM.

      (3) That, because of Observation #2, the motivations driving these alerts AND the true origin of these alerts (back to the Cui bono? question) is highly suspect. It’s suspect because the emotional strength and tenor of these these Watch Out For The WM With A ‘Fetish’ Boogeyman alerts appear to be waaay out of proportion with the actual observed prevalence of that particular type of WM Boogeyman.

      (4) That, at the end of the day, it’s quite possible for AA women to learn how to do a better job of vetting and screening out that type of WM Boogeyman—along with screening out the other types of male creeps across the board. I’m confident that large numbers of AA women can get themselves up to speed with that. That is, if they want to and if they’re determined to do so.

      And now, you sound heavily invested in “proving” that the bulk of Asian women’s marriages to WM are somehow overwhelmingly pathological. I don’t buy into that bit of stereotyping. Like any other situations, I’m sure that some of these marriages are and some of them aren’t.

      In any event, you’re being so much more vocal in claiming that Asian women are oppressed than they are themselves! I don’t understand this, but it’s a distraction that I’m not willing to pursue at length.

      If you’re so convinced that others of us are in error about these particular matters, then please feel free and welcome to leave us in our error about these specific matters. You’ve given what you feel are our “errors” several rotations, it’s time to let it go…and let the rest of us who find value in what you believe is our “erroneous” analysis continue on with it. In the end, people find truth on their own.

      Expect Success!

  32. Ali says:

    One of the many things I love about this site is how illuminating it is – I learn so much about what other people are experiencing, and a lot of the things that I used to find confusing or odd is revealed here.

    About the fetish thing, first described by Roslyn above. NOW I’m starting to get why some women feel this way – I always assumed that this was just crazy, paranoid talk, but it seems that there are some women have actually experienced this in the real world?

    Maybe it’s my generation or my social circle (not military or southern men – NY’s and Europeans) or the fact that I’ve never dated online (mostly dated friends of friends, people from work, etc) – but I honestly have never, ever experienced this. Not even once. No wm ‘fetishists’. Nada. Nothing. And I’ve had a couple boyfriends, been on plenty of dates, had crushes, etc. Most of them didn’t work out, one of them did – but I just have never experienced this I real life. So when some BW go on and on about a fetish and ‘watch out for wm’ it’s just absolutely baffling to me.

    Also, so of the warnings seem kind of obvious to me – if I met a white guy who talked bad about white women, of course I wouldn’t date him! DUH. He’s a total loser, there’s something wrong with him. No woman of any color should date a guy like that. I ‘ve never dated a guy who was much older than me, and I’ve never dated a guy who’s been divorced, or had a crazy Barbie collection or a slave flaf, so I don’t know.

    I’ve always been the kind of girl to stop seeing a guy if he’s rude to the waitress. I’m ashamed to say this, but I’m pretty picky – I ended things once with a nice guy who smoked. He was not interested in quitting, and I was not interested in having my future children grow up in clouds of smoke, so he was out. This woman saw A SLAVE FLAG and she stuck around? Seriously? WOW.

    The fetish thing always seemed like an obvious ploy thought up by WW and BM to get BW in place. All my female relatives who talk about ‘fetish’ have NEVER DATED WM. They don’t even know any. Meanwhile they are being abused regularly by bm.

    To me, even if you do encounter theses guys, they should be easy to spot. And the alternative – restricting yourself to BM – seems so extreme and crazy, considering how rare these guys are.

    This is how I’ve always sort of felt about racism in general. I’ve definitely experienced racism from white people. But I’ve gotten far, far worse treatment from black people in my life. That sounds awful, but it’s the truth.

    As far as men, no white guy in my social circle has even come close to insulting and degrading me as the average black man on the street. Am I the only one who’s experienced this?

    There are bums everywhere, but I say if you’re under 30 and living in a major, urban city – the worry about WM ‘fetishism’ is almost non exstent. Unless you’re a total dope who will date anything.

    I’m still waiting for the WM ‘boogeyman’ to show up!

    • Yellow Moon says:

      Ali said:

      “This is how I’ve always sort of felt about racism in general. I’ve definitely experienced racism from white people. But I’ve gotten far, far worse treatment from black people in my life. That sounds awful, but it’s the truth.

      As far as men, no white guy in my social circle has even come close to insulting and degrading me as the average black man on the street. Am I the only one who’s experienced this?”

      I say:

      No. I have exactly the same life experience in this area. In fact, I’ll go a step further and say that not only have the white people I know (mostly males) not only NOT produced negative value (street harrassment, petty crime, sexual jibes, etc.) in my life like black people, they have produced far more positive value in my life than the black people I’ve come in contact with. Postive value like fixing my car (for free, and with no expectation of sexual favors at some later date), giving me perfectly good matching place settings (because they were going for a new look), offering to draw up some basic legal documents regarding a transaction (for free – he is a lawyer), my neighbor fixing the router and printer settings on my laptop, etc.

      Yeah, it does sound awful to say it, and yeah, I don’t get any pleasure in saying it, but I agree with you.

      • SweetIslandGirl says:

        I agree with Ali and Yellow Moon 100% on this.

        I’ve expereinced racisim from white people both overtly and covertly however the worst I’ve ever experienced was from my own people. The dirtiest looks and rudest comments I’ve ever received while out and about with my Non-Black Ex was from BM and BW.

        Its sad

    • ak says:

      Ali:

      Maybe it’s my generation or my social circle (not military or southern men – NY’s and Europeans) or the fact that I’ve never dated online (mostly dated friends of friends, people from work, etc) – but I honestly have never, ever experienced this. Not even once. No wm ‘fetishists’. Nada. Nothing. And I’ve had a couple boyfriends, been on plenty of dates, had crushes, etc. Most of them didn’t work out, one of them did – but I just have never experienced this I real life. So when some BW go on and on about a fetish and ‘watch out for wm’ it’s just absolutely baffling to me.

      ak:

      I see what you’re saying and I’m in my early 30s. Once in a great blue moon, in both the US and in the UK, I’ll run into a WM ‘fetishist’ type but they’re so ridiculous and transparent with the foolishness that they say that I just laugh it off. They’re not scary at all, just stupid! I never talk to them again, never see them again, never go out with them or have sex with them, they never get me number, etc. They’re just Def Comedy Jam laughabble, and that’s just it! LOL But mostly for me it’s just as Ali describes it.

      Ali:

      This is how I’ve always sort of felt about racism in general. I’ve definitely experienced racism from white people. But I’ve gotten far, far worse treatment from black people in my life. That sounds awful, but it’s the truth.

      That’s how I feel. It was other black people’s treatment of me that hurts the most, and it’s only recently through blogs such as Khadija’s that I don’t let such things hurt me and penetrate my being and state of mind anymore. plus I go to therapy now seeing a therapist I’m comfortable with seeing who doesn’t talk down to me, and also really wants to discuss and tackle the real issues it seems so far.

      Black people sometimes remind me of that great 70s song by The Undisputed Truth called ‘Smiling Faces (Sometimes)’ LOL Mostly because of that one line in the song that goes ‘Your enemy won’t do you no harm, ’cause you know where he’s comin’ from’ because black people mostly in the US, where I mostly grew up, are taught from time to look at whites as the enemy especially the black girls and women so I automatically thought that whites would be the enemy right away or sooner or later because of the obvious physical differences that’d be used as the excuse. But black people never really want to deal with introspectively their own un-friendly fire which is deadly, and even more deadly to not observe it, which is why now black neighborhoods that were probably safer although dirt-poor in the 1960s are not even fit to walk through at 4:30 PM like Paterson, NJ!

  33. Evia says:

    @Tertiary Anna re:

    I’d like to talk about how to advocate for ourselves, independently of what other people may or may not be doing. If we did that, then when we meet someone who is not in alignment with our goals, we can just step aside and keep it moving if we can’t get what we need.

    Exactly!! This means that if ANY strange man is talking sextalk to a woman, or disrespecting her, making her feel uncomfortable in any way, OR (inside a relationship) not reciprocating, not meeting her needs, etc., she would put him on notice (in a ladylike, butterflyish way of course! LOL!), give him a minute to correct himself or quickly get out of his presence. When she does this, this means that she’s advocating for her right to be treated well, like the worthy person she is. He is not in alignment with her goals.

    … I wonder if some of us know what it means to uplift ourselves, irrespective of what anyone else is doing. Or what a healthy relationship looks like from our contribution, as well as his.

    There’s a lot that younger AA women don’t seem to know, and frankly, to me, as an “old school” bw from my own particular slice of life, I don’t know what all many of you don’t know. If a man continues to not do things that he’s supposed to do, he is unreliable/irresponsible and no sensible woman who believes she is worthy would be bothered with him for more than a minute. “Old school” women from my slice of life were called “fools” by other bw when I was growing up for sticking with that type of man. So much has changed so drastically in the past few decades!! Of course, some of those bw did stay with those men for a variety of reasons, but they lost degrees of respect from others.

    Honestly, it’s hard for me to grasp that any reasonably intelligent bw over 22 needs to have a “good role model” to know that she should get rid of a man like that these days. To me, it sounds like a plain-ole excuse when these women claim that no one ever taught them to get rid of a user-loser-abuser man and/or an unreliable one. We don’t need to be taught everything! If she had an unreliable car, she would get rid of it without needing a role model to observe, wouldn’t she? So I don’t believe that bw don’t know how to be proactive in some cases; I believe they have swallowed the lies that they don’t have CHOICES or are afraid of losing their “black card.” Even if they don’t think they are worthy of a new car, I believe that if they knew they could get a new car, they would.

    Another thing I want to highlight here is the comment Khadija made about how so many AA women self-segregate to the max. Whew! That is backwards behavior in 2011. I have a very high regard for a lot of AA women, but I’ve NEVER self-segregated. That is a failing tactic.

    Many of the things that AA women don’t know could be learned from other more functional groups of women if AA women didn’t self-segregate so much. The collapse of the black “community” will be one of the best things for AA women because they will then not feel their black card is of any value. They’ll then feel free to go. This is why I’ve described myself as a PAB (passing as black). I don’t want anyone to think that I’m a “black” woman. I got rid of my card decades ago, if I ever had one.

    For example, if every DBR male was magically made into a QLL one, would we, in our own persons, be any different in romantic relationships than what we are right now?

    This is a very interesting thread to pursue for many of you younger/unmarried women in particular. I’ve wondered myself what exactly does go on inside the relationships that some bw have with men. I wonder whether some younger bw, in particular, know how to win a man’s heart and keep it. Does the typical “new school” younger bw know how to flirt, be playful, be lighthearted, fun to be with, a little unpredictable and mysterious, be stylish (in her own way), engage his mind by holding a conversation with a man such that he’ll want to keep talking with her, and meanwhile never be rude, crude, gross in her behavior, be his friend, his confidante, his lover, his nurturer, etc.

    What are our particular needs in a relationship as BW (if there are different needs?) Do we know ourselves well enough to set the boundaries that would allow us to protect ourselves from bad relationships, regardless of the reasons why they’re bad?

    Great questions!!

    @Truth P re:

    I know for a fact that young black male criminals ARE in fact being raised by older black males despite their mothers being single.In every black neighborhood I’ve been to there has always been men who were in and out of jail/drug dealers/users and abusers influencing and even guiding the lives of young black boys.

    ITA! I know this is a topic for another thread, but you hit the bullseye with this. You’ve got a sharp eye! LOL! Folks say the bm are no longer in those black communities, but that’s not true. Those bw are getting pregnant by males and those males are NOT white or Asian and not more than a handful of Hispanics. There are a lot of DBR and assorted other loser bm in those black neighborhoods, just like in the one near me, and yep, the young black boys over there emulate them because boys want to grow up to be viewed as males, not females. By the time the typical black boy over there is 12, it’s all over for him.

  34. Sisterlocgirl says:

    Khadijah, I hope this isn’t off topic and if it is please feel free to maybe use this as another topic for us. Here’s another cui bono moment. Did anyone have the misfortune to see the Pepsi commercial during the SuperBowl? Yet another unflattering depiction of black woman. Who exactly does that benefit? What was the purpose of putting forth an image like that? Especially when you see the portrayal of the ww in the ad. Well I say vote with your wallet and BOYCOTT PEPSI PRODUCTS. Too many companies have figured out that we are a fairly good demographic in our own right. It does not behoove any of us to give our financial support to a company that can place such unflattering portrayals of us in the public eye. Take a look at the clip on You Tube and then tell me how it makes you feel. I for one will not purchase another Pepsi product. Their product line? Ocean Spray Juices, Sobe, Amp energy drinks, Tazo bottled iced teas, Starbucks prepared/bottled coffee drinks, Tropicana juices, Lipton bottled teas. I think I covered them all. This is yet another example of a non-reciprocating reationship that we actually can eliminate. Protests and marching doesn’t send a message. Action does. As the old folks say, Money talks. Voting with one’s wallet is far more effective than protest walks, etc.

    • Truth P. says:

      @Pesi I think they own doritos and ruffles potato chips also.

      The war against black women and our image has picked up some and I do not put anything pass anybody,especially black men.

      I don’t know if you all heard but the male actor in that commercial played in a very anti black woman film that shall not be mentioned.The film also portrayed black women as angry and mean spirited.There was also a black man who left an angry black woman for a more pleasant white woman in the film. I did not personally see the film but I heard from someone who saw it for free on the internet that I should stay away from it as well as the the director’s anti black woman website and I did.

      I don’t think it was a coincidence at all that the same black male actor who played in that hateful anti black woman film also played in this commercial.

      It is going to get much more difficult,dangerous,and deadly for black women who will continue to stay attached to black men.There is a war against us and many black men are trying to take us out.I don’t feel that I am paranoid but I am ringing the alarm for those of you who are still sleep.
      The way I see it most black men=kkk.
      This includes most of my own black male relatives.

  35. YMB says:

    Oh my gracious, I can barely make it through the volume of comments this post has generated already!

    As Khadija, Evia, and several others have already stated, it’s not about denying that any of these WM fetish-harboring creatures exist, however the fear and paranoia is wildly out of proportion than their actual numbers or the actual threat they pose to BW using (un)common sense vetting techniques. Why are BW, the bulk of whom are being sexed and discarded by BM and have already let themselves be relegated to permanent babymama status, so overwrought with fear and concern over the specter of such WM? The number of these men in the WM population does not come anywhere near the level of DBRism amongst BM so why the panic?

    Yet BW persist in this intense fear of WM fetishists even in the face of so many other BW who have successful marriages and families with loving, committed, fully-reciprocal, providing, and protecting WM? This is not an unusual experience for BW in IR dating but some of are still acting like it is. Why do we keep filtering out anything that contradicts the “black women are at the bottom of the desirability totem pole” belief?

    I think this fear persists because some of us still do not feel we as BW are worthy of legitimate romantic interest from WM. And if we don’t feel worthy ourselves of course we are suspicious of those who would offer us that which we feel we don’t deserve.

    Also, I never meant to imply that toxic WM dirtbags don’t exist. I don’t believe there is a large percentage of them or that there needs to be any brand of special vigilance put in place to identify them. As has been said multiple times, if a BW is properly vetting and evaluating her dating prospects, it is easy to weed these men out. They are not subtle nor sophisticated in their behavior. They are quite obvious to anyone paying attention.

    I think many of us are not doing that. Rather than learning how to think critically and evaluate every person and thing in our lives, and starting to ask cui buono, many of us want to rely on rules and other mental shortcuts. I think many of us have substituted the rule that BM= DBR and WM = good and trustworthy as a mental short cut for vetting. In those cases paranoia about rampant fetishism in WM equates to “I am afraid of running into WM fetishists who will not view me as a legitimate partner because I still have not learned/do not trust myself to effectively vet romantic partners.”

    • ak says:

      YMB:

      Why are BW, the bulk of whom are being sexed and discarded by BM and have already let themselves be relegated to permanent babymama status, so overwrought with fear and concern over the specter of such WM? The number of these men in the WM population does not come anywhere near the level of DBRism amongst BM so why the panic?

      Hello! ITA

  36. Melissa says:

    Great post, Khadija! I wanted to temporarily delurk and let you know how much I love reading your blog. I think it’s a wonderful resource for women, especially us young BW who need BWE, lifestyle optimization and good old fashion advice. I wanted to add a different angle to the discussion. I think part of the “racial fetishing” that’s gone on in this country has a little to do with American mainstream culture that promotes a culture fixated on “fetishes” where people and things are broken down into pieces/parts to be used or discarded by someone else (ie. the way the means of production are broken down in this country-capitalism). Therefore, when you have a system like this in place, it manifests itself in other aspects of our lives such as dating, relationships and racial stereotypes which are then fed back to everyone, especially women. Nobody wants to be used that way in a relationship, so it’s a VERY effective weapon to throw “fetish” out there. Hence, we see these sorts of arguments being used by everyone to try to benefit themselves (ie. BW using this as an argument to protect themselves from showing interest in non-BM or AW turning the stereotype around).

    In terms of WM fetishes, I think everyone is right on about it. I also wanted to add that I think the reason the stereotype is able to continue so well with BW is that part of it is due to the fact that “sexism and patriarchy” are so engrained in our society that ALL men can perpetrate sexism to women BUT WM are seen as the greatest perpetrators of the patriarchy/sexism in our society, especially from BW. Also, women can project sexism on to each other to protect THEIR own interests as seen with WW, BW, AW. I think the “fetish” argument has become such a common and EASY argument for BW to use rather than challenge the history and underlying message in the argument (as we are doing here). As Evia mentioned earlier, I do think there may be some cover up with BW going on. I’ve seen this first hand with several of my dearest friends and family members who will throw that stereotype out in public but in private it’s a different story. At the end of the day, if BW keep asking “cui bueno” than they won’t have to worry about being used by ANYBODY.

  37. NijaG says:

    This has really been a very interesting discussion. Even with some of the diverging viewpoints I think there is a lot of great things being discussed that are causing “lightbulb” moments for the more silent readers.

    I said this on one of Halima’s recent posts. One of the themes I keep hearing amongst some of the participants in BWE/IR blogs is that WW, WM, and all non-black groups are somehow against BW as a collective and want to keep us down. I think this is a very limiting and detrimental mindset to have, especially if you’re considering expanding your dating option.

    In general men from outside groups don’t concern themselves with the issues and problems of women from another group. That is the job of the men from those women’s group to do. I’m saying this because I sometimes see a certain expectation/mindset that WM should be doing more for BW as a collective.

    The advantage women have when men from their groups fail to protect and provide is that they can use their “female card” as Evia attract mates from other more stable groups around them if possible.

    • NijaG,

      You said, “One of the themes I keep hearing amongst some of the participants in BWE/IR blogs is that WW, WM, and all non-black groups are somehow against BW as a collective and want to keep us down. I think this is a very limiting and detrimental mindset to have, especially if you’re considering expanding your dating option.”

      Here are my thoughts about that:

      I don’t think that various other groups are pursuing a conscious conspiracy/mission to keep BW down. I think that people (as individuals—which in the aggregate has collective effects) are consistently acting in what they perceive to be their own best interests. It’s not these other people’s fault that many BW are not acting in their own best interests.

      To be more specific, I think many of these other folks are basically indifferent to BW as a collective. This indifference means that they have no rational reason to go out of their way to be protective of BW as a collective. They have nothing to gain from fighting battles on the BW collective’s behalf. There’s no benefit to them to do that on a collective basis, so they don’t.

      [Now, others will sometimes intervene on behalf of the individual Black folks that they happen to have some sort of close relationship with. But that’s a different, and individualized, situation.]

      When nonblack others see AA women doing disastrous things to BW’s collective image (such as lifting up grotesque images such as in the movie Precious, etc.), they have no reason to intervene to stop that. They have no reason to do anything other than sit back and let BW cut their own throats in terms of public image.

      Contrast this with the interventions that were done in terms of previously extra-mannish looking White lesbians such as Rachel Maddow, Ellen and others. Whites won’t let quirky WW do heavy duty damage to WW’s overall public image. Industry Whites MADE Rachel Maddow and others de-butch to a certain degree as a condition of being given access to a wide public platform.

      Also, at times, individual nonblack women feel the need to act in what they believe are their own best interests by making preemptive strikes—when the opportunity comes up—against other groups of women they view as competition or potential competition. That’s what I suspect happened with the Gabby Vogue cover. The first bit of preemptive strike was in selecting a morbidly obese BW for the cover—they’re not in the habit of putting obese WW on the cover of that magazine. The second bit of preemptive strike was in how they messed up the lighting, etc. in that photo.

      In that instance, I suspect that one or more individual WW (or other nonblack women) took the opportunity to sabotage. And the other indifferent nonblacks involved in making that cover didn’t intervene to stop it. Why would they? What would be the benefit for the indifferent bystanders to fight some battle over not letting whoever mess up Gabby’s cover? Nothing. So,they had no rational reason to intervene. And they apparently didn’t.

      In short, I don’t think legions of nonblack others are on an active mission against BW. I think it’s more a matter of them being indifferent, and therefore not going out of their way to intervene on BW’s behalf.

      Expect Success!

      • SS says:

        I know that other groups in their normal lives are largely indifferent to black women and their perceived problems, but in my view Hollywood is not one of those groups. There has been a concerted effort in the last few years to denigrate black women in film even when their presence is not integral to the film. I have noticed a tendency in mainstream comedies to insert a black female character in a film simply for purpose of destroying the feminine image of black women. I recently saw “The Dilemma” starring Vince Vaughn and in it Queen Latifah has a bit part as a she-male character that describes ideas only in sexual terms. Queen Latifah also has a bit part in the film “Valentine’s Day” (she is the only black woman in the whole film) and she again has a small part in which she has phone sex on a chat line. All the other characters including Jamie Foxx had normal romantic storylines. Lastly, “All About Steve” with Sandra Bullock featured a particularly nasty character played by an obese black woman. She had a very tiny role but suffice it to say it was pretty damaging. I know these things are not by accident and in my opinion the assault on our image seems more relentless than ever. I always ask “cui bono” in these instances. I am wondering if this is in retaliation for the wonderful image of grace and beauty presented by America’s First Lady. Her image is in stark contrast to black women in film. I can’t see non-black men sitting around plotting against black women because of the First Lady’s wonderful image.

        • Zoopath says:

          I do think it’s related to Michelle Obama, whom I Stan for. The thing is, is that I don’t expect anything different from other non-black groups. If another groups of women is gaining prominence, of course there’s going to be retaliatory media to eliminate the rising threat to the more dominant groups.

        • SS,

          I would guess that what’s happening in Hollywood is a microcosm of the overall pattern that I mentioned before.

          I would expect that most of those nonblack Hollywood folks are indifferent regarding BW. And that’s why they don’t intervene to stop the actions of the BW-haters who are working in Hollywood. Some of those BW-hater working in Hollywood are a number of BM actors, BM directors, along with individual nonblack women who have the urge to lash out at BW.

          Expect Success!

  38. tertiaryanna says:

    Lynn

    I’m labeled as someone who broadcasts to the world BW are not worthy….

    I don’t think that you’re labeling. I do think you are reporting on what people are saying.

    My concern is less that the message is out there (I know it is, because I have also heard this) but why so many BW (including myself, for far too long) are so quick to internalize it.

    There are a whole lot of negative stereotypes associated with women, period. For example, that we’re more concerned with our appearances than with our brains. But most normal women dismiss that attitude unless explicitly confronted with it. I’m wondering why so few BW can do the same with the “worthless because we’re BW” stereotype.

    I’d like to discuss strategies or new outlooks that BW can use to sidestep that viewpoint that you mentioned.

    • tertiaryanna says:

      Lynn

      I meant to say that I don’t think you’re the source of negativity, but that you’re reporting on what you’ve heard. I was unclear before.

    • YMB says:

      I think making “BW are the bottom of the barrel” statements is one of the ultimate vulgarian tendencies that Khadija discussed a while back. I don’t know how much benefit there would be to gain from engaging women who make such statements in conversation about why they think convincing other BW and non-blacks that BW are undesirable is a benefit rather than a harm. Getting a pitying pat on the head after making people feel you are a dating charity case can’t feel that rewarding.

      As Khadija has been advocating, BW need to be super attentive to cultivating their own femininity and individual brand so that they can distance themselves from the negative stereotypes being promoted about BW.If you haven’t yet broken free of that BW are of no/low value mindset, then work to address it. Seek therapy if you can’t afford it. They have self-help books on self esteem at the library.

      One of the researchers who developed the Implicit Association Test for racial bias found that she lessened the subconscious bias she felt towards black people by surrounding herself with positive images of black people that she took from magazines, etc. It would probably work for us, too.

      I just learned Vogue Italia has done another spread featuring only black models for its February issue. You may remember their all black issue from a few years ago,that is still available on their website and they have a whole section celebrating black beauty.

  39. sweetgumbolady says:

    My goodness this has been a heated convo. I won’t add my comments to the discussion of fetishes because I think my views have been represented by someone or another, at least once! Khadija, the discussions you catalyze are very important, and I hope you’ll continue to do this in your blog. In addition to the barriers BW face and overcome, I’m anxious for more discussion of topics with a positive/uplifting bent to them. Thanks to you and your blog’s responsders.

    • Sweetgumbolady,

      Thank you for your kind words about the blog; I truly appreciate it.

      You said, “My goodness this has been a heated convo.”

      All forms of “heresy” usually stir up a lot of strong emotions. 🙂

      Expect Success!

  40. kristen says:

    Forgive me if I am repeating this [I have not yet read all of the many enlightening comments]

    Thinking about this post, I’d also like to add that every since Asian Women have alinged themselves to the Alpha [White] Male that the negative and stereotypical images of them as the “Geisha Girl” “Me So Horny” archetype have all but vanished. Not completely of course, but I would say that it is currently very rare to see these negative images of AW. After all no man wants to see his wife/mother of his children disrespected…

  41. the right one says:

    [Khadija speaking: Inshallah (God willing), I’ll email you later today about the “regular commenters” parameters. There are some things about the new policy about premium content that I’d prefer not to discuss publicly. ]
    _____________________________________________

    Oh why so shy, Kadijha? You’re usually so bold and generous with ‘your’ thoughts. Why cease now?

    …unless of course, your ‘premium content’ is not really yours and you’re a thief like the Bolar woman you maligned in a previous post.

    I’m sure you are a good, moral, honest, upstanding citizen, who doesn’t steal…

  42. Coffy says:

    Great discussion, I can’t add anything that hasn’t already been said. However during my first year in college I let a BM “friend” talk me out of accepting advances from a WM because “WM are perverts, and you’d just be a conquest to discuss w/ his friends.” I wish I had access to these types of discussions back then. I’m so grateful to have found this site and must thank you Khadija for taking the time to host this blog.

  43. Evia says:

    @Khadija re–

    I don’t think legions of nonblack others are on an active mission against BW. I think it’s more a matter of them being indifferent, and therefore not going out of their way to intervene on BW’s behalf.

    ITA, Khadija! I’m not sure why bw would even expect for others to intervene on our behalf????? What have bw done lately for wm? Or ww? SMH On the contrary, many AA women display unfriendly behavior towards wm and ww on a daily basis, (without any knowledge of whether these whites have ever behaved in a racist fashion) and sometimes the sista soldier bw’s behavior is a LOT worse than unfriendly towards whites.

    So it’s a part of that old failure-prone thought system that so many bw still have that expects others to be ‘fair.’ LOL!

    Bw, we ALL live in a vicious, savage world. Face this! And then learn how to become the eaters and not the eaten!!!

    And ITA, Khadija that so many of the BWE/BWIR readers are saying all the right terms and phrases, but they still don’t GET IT!

    Anwyay, it’s a failure move to buy into paranoia even if what they fear is real because paranoia takes up too much energy and shifts the focus. Of course, if someone is shooting real bullets at you, then that’s different. Most of this other stuff should only receive very minimal attention, if any. If EACH bw is PROACTIVE as AnnaTertiary advocates, then EACH bw will be fine. They’ll be doing everything to get ahead and won’t need to think about who’s out to get them because they’ll be getting most of what they want.

    I say AGAIN, bw’s new power will come from their new THOUGHT system. With the right THOUGHT system, bw could be unbeatable. And the best part is that a thought system cannot be taken away because it’s invisible and no one knows you have it. This is where we have to focus, almost totally, ladies because in a competitive world, anything that’s tangible in any form can be shattered by more powerful, organized, or even hateful others.

    I guess it may be a miracle that I stumbled or fell into the path of the proactive THOUGHT system when I was younger. Please understand that I’m not blowing my own horn when I say any of what I say; I’m instead talking about what WORKS. My life proves this because I didn’t start out in life any better than most of you and probably a lot worse than many of you.

    This is why I keep saying that bw CAN change what’s happening to them now and they can be of average looks and have average intelligence and still come out on top. They can marry some of this country’s/world’s more comfortably positioned or higher men who will work diligently to lift a bw (his wife) up, one woman at a time.

    Yes, I’ve been successful at doing this in BOTH cases, but it’s due to my thought system and nothing else.

    I do think that some bm do go out of their way to debase bw, and they’ll continue to do it as they rise since they’re trying to show just how unfit bw are since they believe that takes the tarnish off their image of abandoning the women and children who look most like their mothers and their siblings, however, I don’t think that we’re viewed as such a threat to others to cause them to do strategic or tactical planning to stop us. LOL!

    On a slightly different note, I scanned yahoo news and saw that Lindsay Lohan has had another episode. You have to give the white media major props! It’s business as usual. Look at how they’re handling this latest episode of her sticky fingers. They’re labeling her as a “troubled young star.” LOL!!! She is that, but “troubled” brings sympathy. Many men in the world have been socialized to RUSH to help out or even sacrifice themselves to help or save a troubled young woman. The patriarchy is not going to allow anyone to harm a “troubled young” woman. They did the same with Britney Spears. Dr. Phil rushed to her rescue. That also lets other “troubled” white women know that they too will be supported.

    Ont the other hand, the Lindsey Lohans of the world have also been socialized to at least pretend to be grateful. I’ve seen this “show” of gratitude many times. It works!

    Most women in other groups know what “show” to put on. They don’t put on the “Wm are nasty perverted creatures” show especially when the most numerous group of marrying men around most bw are white. I was taught a long time ago to “Never bite the hand that feeds you” or might feed you. In order for me to bite any hand, that hand has proven to me that there’s a very high probability that it won’t feed me or those who look like me.

    Unfortunately, many young bw have not received this socialization, don’t know how to show gratitude or won’t even pretend to show it, and will therefore argue with those who try to help, name-call, and give them a hard time. If any of those bw are in this readership, LEARN NOW to show gratitude because no one has to do anything for you.

    • Evia,

      You said, “I’m not sure why bw would even expect for others to intervene on our behalf????? What have bw done lately for wm? Or ww? SMH On the contrary, many AA women display unfriendly behavior towards wm and ww on a daily basis, (without any knowledge of whether these whites have ever behaved in a racist fashion) and sometimes the sista soldier bw’s behavior is a LOT worse than unfriendly towards whites.

      So it’s a part of that old failure-prone thought system that so many bw still have that expects others to be ‘fair.’ LOL!”

      Yep, the Sista Soliders’ indiscriminate behaviors towards Whites in general often ARE extremely off-putting. The same “What rational reason would anybody else have for intervening on their behalf?” analysis also applies to the legions AA women self-segregators.

      You said, “Bw, we ALL live in a vicious, savage world. Face this! And then learn how to become the eaters and not the eaten!!!”

      YES!

      You said, “And ITA, Khadija that so many of the BWE/BWIR readers are saying all the right terms and phrases, but they still don’t GET IT!”

      Yes, a number of them are simply repeating the words “vetting” and “reciprocity” without having any real comprehension of what they mean. Or having any comprehension what “vetting” and “reciprocity” looks like in action. With the New Year, I figured that if a picture is worth a thousand words in more effectively communicating a concept, then ACTIONS are worth a million words in getting certain ideas across. 🙂

      You said, “Anwyay, it’s a failure move to buy into paranoia even if what they fear is real because paranoia takes up too much energy and shifts the focus. Of course, if someone is shooting real bullets at you, then that’s different. Most of this other stuff should only receive very minimal attention, if any. If EACH bw is PROACTIVE as AnnaTertiary advocates, then EACH bw will be fine. They’ll be doing everything to get ahead and won’t need to think about who’s out to get them because they’ll be getting most of what they want.

      I say AGAIN, bw’s new power will come from their new THOUGHT system. With the right THOUGHT system, bw could be unbeatable. And the best part is that a thought system cannot be taken away because it’s invisible and no one knows you have it. This is where we have to focus, almost totally, ladies because in a competitive world, anything that’s tangible in any form can be shattered by more powerful, organized, or even hateful others.”

      I 100% cosgin. PioneerValleyWoman’s comment perfectly summed all of this up: Asian women and other women take “the lay of the land,” understand the specific tactical social conditions they’re operating under as members of various racial/ethnic groups, and ACT ACCORDINGLY to maximize their own SELF-interests.

      AA women can learn to do the same. That is, if we learn to STOP being stuck on being overwrought about various boogeymen. The various boogeymen can be vetted and screend OUT. It’s not that complex—women from every other ethnic and racial group go forth and navigate the planet’s various social landscapes. Including traumatized 3rd world refugee women who come to the industrialized West fleeing mass rape, starvation, and who know what else. These women often do quite well in securing loving, lovable, quality WM husbands for themselves. AA women can get their vetting/screening skills up to speed and learn how to do the same.

      You said, “Most women in other groups know what “show” to put on. They don’t put on the “Wm are nasty perverted creatures” show especially when the most numerous group of marrying men around most bw are white. I was taught a long time ago to “Never bite the hand that feeds you” or might feed you. In order for me to bite any hand, that hand has proven to me that there’s a very high probability that it won’t feed me or those who look like me.

      Unfortunately, many young bw have not received this socialization, don’t know how to show gratitude or won’t even pretend to show it, and will therefore argue with those who try to help, name-call, and give them a hard time. If any of those bw are in this readership, LEARN NOW to show gratitude because no one has to do anything for you.”

      Unfortunately, many if not most AAs (including AA women) are socialized to have the SAVAGE reaction of interpreting kindness as weakness and an invitation to abuse the kind person. And then—after biting the hand that tried to feed them—they’re shocked and indignant when the kind person withdraws their hand and stops trying to be helpful. Or stops being indiscriminately helpful, and starts enforcing some standards in exchange for their help. All of this madness is intertwined with the entitlement mentality madness that’s pervasive among new-school AAs in general.

      Also, I believe more AA women need to understand is that if you choose to bite the hand, then DON’T look for that hand to ever help you. And DON’T be shocked if that hand decides to hit back, and punch you upside your head (as in Ms. Williams-Bolar the thief with an attitude).

      Expect Success!

      • Evelyn says:

        Also, I believe more AA women need to understand is that if you choose to bite the hand, then DON’T look for that hand to ever help you. And DON’T be shocked if that hand decides to hit back, and punch you upside your head (as in Ms. Williams-Bolar the thief with an attitude).

        I’m coming into this conversation late, but I read this and almost died laughing, I must have been rolling around for a good 5 minutes! Quote of the day for me!

        But in response to the entire thread, I wish I had something to contribute that everyone else hasn’t already conveyed so eloquently! Amazing post!

        • Evelyn,

          Thanks for the appreciation! I believe a reader named JJ had the best recent line. During the Emergency Warning conversation she said:

          “And Roslyn Holcomb is most correct….anyone who has warm fuzzy notions about saving the underclass has certainly never dealt with them.

          Most thank you for your help by stomping down on your face with all four hooves!”

          {still laughing whenever I think of that}

          Expect Success!

          • MsMellody says:

            To Evelyn and Khadija…

            Yes “indeedy”.. this is the very comment that I too laughed my a** off when I heard it. And it was indeed a commentor from the direct previous conversation who said it..the now imfamous ..” coming down on you with ALL FOUR HOOVES!!!!!!”….

            I still visualize a “savage beast like donkey mule” coming down on the hand that feeds, when I got to that perfectly stated description paragraph in your comment…where Khadija said:

            “Unfortunately, many if not most AAs (including AA women) are socialized to have the SAVAGE reaction of interpreting kindness as weakness and an invitation to abuse the kind person. And then—after biting the hand that tried to feed them—they’re shocked and indignant when the kind person withdraws their hand and stops trying to be helpful. Or stops being indiscriminately helpful, and starts enforcing some standards in exchange for their help. All of this madness is intertwined with the entitlement mentality madness that’s pervasive among new-school AAs in general.”

  44. pioneervalleywoman says:

    Evia on vetting:

    If bw learn to VET men, they don’t have to be afraid of what ANY man has in the recesses of his brain. If a woman is always mindful and vigilant re the way a man TREATS her, that’ the key.

    My reply:

    This is the ultimate word on this whole debate, on wm with fetishes, wm thinking bw are less, Asian women and their strategies, etc.

    There is nothing wrong with understanding what the stereotypes are out there of all groups of women. The next step lies in an individual bw capitalizing on that. Recognizing that certain stereotypes exist about black, Asian and white women (of whatever types)is an effective tool for black women to strategize in their self-presentation, actions and so forth.

    This is the type of strategy to pursue–identify the best of what we want and leave the rest behind.

    For example, Asian women know the negative stereotypes that have existed about them (as cultivated in particular by US servicemen overseas), but their public image never played into that–their public image lay in presenting only the positive aspects of their stereotype, as being extremely feminine.

    They know as well, the stereotypes that some men have of white women (arrogant, spoiled and entitled–with a nasty tinge about it); they play into those as well (making sure they get what they are entitled to without appearing arrogant/nasty about it), and the smart ones use their vetting skills to avoid the worst of those stereotypers–the creepies.

    So if a wm thinks bw are “different,” does that necessarily mean he thinks bw accept less than the typical ww, that she has less self-esteem? Putting aside the horrible and racist fetishers, perhaps it might mean that in his dealings with decent bw, he finds them to be: attractive, warm, self-confident (without being arrogant), charming and feminine?

    Fetishers (in my mind) were always those men, as someone mentioned, who didn’t seem to see me as something else other than sex object, ie., not serious about dating me, not serious about getting to know me, and making it clear from their hints, just what they were after. As for me, I can’t recall whether I have ever met any wm fetishers, or if I did, I saw them for what they were a mile away, and I just avoided them, like I did with the bm fetishers, who have been far more numerous!

    • PioneerValleyWoman,

      I 100% cosign. Asian women and other women take “the lay of the land,” understand the specific tactical social conditions they’re operating under as members of various racial/ethnic groups, and ACT ACCORDINGLY to maximize their own SELF-interests. AA women can learn to do the same.

      Expect Success!

    • ak says:

      Thanks PVW I totally agree!

  45. Melissa says:

    Evia said:

    “I’ve wondered myself what exactly does go on inside the relationships that some bw have with men. “Does the typical “new school” younger bw know how to flirt, be playful, be lighthearted, fun to be with, a little unpredictable and mysterious, be stylish (in her own way), engage his mind by holding a conversation with a man such that he’ll want to keep talking with her, and meanwhile never be rude, crude, gross in her behavior, be his friend, his confidante, his lover, his nurturer, etc.”

    The answer to your question is YES some of us do know how to do the above and are having quality relationships with men. I want to respond to a few things because so much is being written about us from people who DON’T know what’s really going on; I think there is a bit of a disconnect. Our social networks are a little different than non-black women but I don’t’ think our “networks” are entirely the problem- it’s how we use them. Now, I’m only speaking from my experience, as a late twenty year old yuppy whose found quality men and dated BM and non-black men. First, let me say, my generation was RAISED on the television in the 90s and the media has powerful images. We saw healthy images of stable black families such as the Cosby Show, Fresh Prince of Belair, Living Single, A Different world, represented on television. However, this singular image hasn’t evolved out of our psyche. So for many BW, those images are still engrained in our heads. Though, times have changed and I don’t think BW or their families have caught up to that idea- different times require different actions.

    College/Undergraduate:

    Many BW have gone college but college has changed DRASTICALLY from when our mothers and grandmothers were there. For them, college was a healthy place to mingle with men, FIND a quality mate and form your future “network”. Etiquette and all kinds of lady things and life skills were taught to women back in the day to learn and practice what you said Evia. To some extent that still does happen today but in a convoluted way where relationships are confused with casual flings and intense drinking and partying is the normal “dating scene”. This is a difficult environment for a young girl to really snuff out a quality mate. However, it CAN be done. Yes, there are great men in college who you can grow with and eventually settle down with but they are hard to find and many of them are still maturing so this requires a bit more work on the women’s side. I have 2 girlfriends who married out of college and are with GREAT men. BUT, they had to grow with them and they were willing to put in the extra work and effort and even move to a different state for them.

    Now back to BW in college. We all aren’t a monolithic group walking around on college campuses; we all have different experiences and levels of maturity. For me, college was a great learning experience. I had the opportunity to explore college without too many external pressures. I used this time to expand my network. I also studied abroad for a semester in France and this did WONDERS for learning how to date and vet men. I urge all BW to travel! In that semester abroad, I learned more about men, how to flirt, be playful, fun and everything else than I ever learned here in the States. The French KNOW the boundaries of a relationship with the opposite sex. In Europe, men and women CAN have relationships without it being sexual as it is NOT the case here in America.

    However, not all BW in college had my experience. For some, college can be isolating especially if you are have competing priorities. Some don’t have the benefits of participating in many extracurricular activities where they could expand their networks and dating potential. For example, some are on academic or athletic scholarships that require intense studying to keep their grades up and some are working part time jobs just to pay for school, leaving very little time to form meaningful relationships and networks other than the odd “party” here and there. Also, unlike other women, we don’t have the support systems or coping mechanisms to discuss these issues so many women look inward to their family/friends, faith groups, which have UNHEALTHY DBR attitudes and don’t get to cultivate those crucial skills. Hence, college does not become a time for greater personal development or a place to practice vetting and forming male friendships.

    Work/Life:

    So, you’ve made it out of college and you’re in the working world. The transition from college to work is CRUCIAL, because if BW aren’t making the transition properly they are losing out on prime opportunities and will often fall back on what’s familiar- DBR attitudes. Specifically, the states and cities BW choose to settle in after college will affect their mating opportunities. Now, let’s be real- there aren’t that many black folks in good office jobs or businesses in this country. We are still over-represented in low paying, service type jobs where you are unlikely to find quality mates. BUT for those of us who are in good jobs, we are a minority and our caution signals are on overtime. We’ve been trained not to “put ourself out there” at work as women in general BUT women should know how to use these work networks to cultivate other networks outside of work. I think this is where the problem lies for BW.

    Yes, BW do know how to flirt, I think the signals may be getting crossed with non-black men because many of us don’t know what we’re looking for especially if non-BM are approaching because for many women they can’t see the subtle signs. Also, some BW ARE vetting men from a distance secretly! Though, some may not be doing it effectively. However, for those of us who are, we are using settle things like the tone and volume of a man in a board meeting, the things he says on a lunch meeting out, or what he discusses at the “photocopier”. These things speak volumes about the character of a man. So some of us do have an interest in non-black men but she may be playing her cards closely and vetting him from afar and waiting for him to approach. So it can go both ways, if BW don’t respond to advances from non-BM it could be that she’s already vetted him and she’s just not that into him.
    Also, the places women socialize at are KEY. If you want quality mates you have to go where they are- man places and don’t bring the BFFs everywhere! Keep yourself on point especially at the supermarket.

    Grad/Professional School:

    There are a lot of BW in graduate school but we need MORE. This is where I am now and it’s GREAT. The opportunities, exposure and networks you form here are wonderful. I think more BW need to consider graduate school earlier in their career, because it’s a great place to really mature and find quality mates because the men are mature, plentiful and looking to marry.

    • Ali says:

      Melissa,

      I just want to say I appreciate this post – your explanation is well mapped out and a really accurate picture of some bw’s lives.

      Thank You

      • Melissa says:

        Thanks Ali, glad you could relate! I sort of ran of out time and wanted to wrap up a few things. Thanks Khadija for making this “open” because it’s generated a lovely discussion!

        I think for many of us “new school” (LOL at this term) ladies who are in the dating world, we all want to be in meaningful relationships with men that will lead to marriage. We have been in contact with some quality men through school, work, friends, social groups, functions, travel, online social networks etc, but it’s not leading us to meaningful relationships or “secure networks”. Personally, I’ve had positive and healthy relationships with men who I had common interests with, found great qualities in, who took me out on PROPER dates, met their families, etc, BUT for many BW I see this is not their experience. For some of them who have dated a few non-BM, they see and experience a few of the above qualities or have a sliver of that experience and use THAT as their point of reference for future dating. For some of them, their limited experience with forming meaningful relationships with men and women in their “networks” lead them to fall back on familiar, harmful reference points such as family/friends/faith groups. Therefore, I think if we could cultivate our networks better and at an earlier age, and learn how to have friendships with the opposite sex, we would be better equipped to deal with dating and relationships. I think this will straighten itself out if BW just keep practicing, and building their networks

        A few ladies have discussed BW’s image as something that needs to be addressed. However, I don’t know if going after our image is really the best way to spend our energy. I don’t think that alone will have the most impact on improving our image. If all BW consider themselves on a level playing field with ALL other women in how they view themselves and when it comes to dating they won’t need to feel they are being denigrated. As mentioned before, our image will improve on its own once we start using our “networks” better to elevate our image. Also, I don’t think we should be spending too much energy on the BW who publicly defame us on blogs because they are already GONE- they drank the kool aid and need help! In many cases, non-BM are smart enough to recognize a deranged woman when they see it. I personally do not waist my time and energy on them but do try to focus my energy on the women in my group and the younger BGs who I feel need more guidance and are looking at us “yuppies” as a point of reference. So, if we don’t have ourselves together than it will be even worse for them. I think this site and a few others are GREAT for them and I do reference it. You ladies are so on point it’s unbelievable…one of you should be running for president, lol!

        • Ali says:

          This is FANTASTIC advice Melissa, I could not agree more – proud to be a fellow ‘buppie’ over here! 🙂

          It really upsets me and hurts my heart when I hear loopy black women slandering me and my skin color – murdering my image and that of any future daughter I might have in public forums. But I am trying to see it to the way you and khadija too. All you can do is stay separate from them.

          I do think men can tell damaged women vs. non damaged women.

        • ak says:

          Melissa:

          Therefore, I think if we could cultivate our networks better and at an earlier age, and learn how to have friendships with the opposite sex, we would be better equipped to deal with dating and relationships. I think this will straighten itself out if BW just keep practicing, and building their networks

          ak:

          I agree with you here and I wished that I’d have done that when I was much younger.

          Melissa:

          As mentioned before, our image will improve on its own once we start using our “networks” better to elevate our image.

          I think that it should be a combination of both the image and the networking personally.

          Khadija for prez! LOL

  46. Alee says:

    Hello everyone, great discussion here! Many thanks to Khadija for hosting. I found this blog some time ago, but I’ve only recently begun reading. I expect to be a regular commenter. I see some faces/names I’m familiar with, and some new ones. 🙂

    Excellent comments by both Khadija and Roslyn re: fetishes, vetting, and interracial pairings involving black women and Asian women, and white men. I have a bit of experience with that.

    I just have to say I 1000% cosign Ali on this comment.

    Ali, you took the words right out of my mouth, my mind. You have no idea. I went through a similar situation not too long ago with a few black women who were going on about this “bottom of the barrel” nonsense. One even had the cheek to make a long post on her blog about it and linked to racist anti-BW sites and videos run by both black and white men! She is seriously clueless. What she expects to gain from running around blogs repeating this, I don’t know. It is worse than self-defeating.

    Ali, you said,

    “Stupid me – I NEVER even knew I was supposed to be a loser, unwanted, etc. – all these years I’ve been happily dating men, and living my life to the fullest never heard that.”

    I said and thought this same thing when the above fiasco was occurring.

    A little background on me: I am what some of you all would consider a younger black woman — in my 20s. I’ve been dating interracially since I could date (I didn’t know it was anything special, I just dated who I was attracted to). My current boyfriend of a few years is white. He’s amazing in so many ways and I couldn’t have asked for a better partner.

    Now, the aforementioned woman is very interested in white men; actually, she prefers them over black men. But she hasn’t gotten the white guys she prefers (she has had dates with white men though). We were somewhat of friends online and I knew of her struggles with self-esteem, dating, etc. I tried to tell her that her struggles aren’t because she is black. But she fought me and said that it’s the general experience of black women to have trouble dating “out”. I told her that hasn’t been my experience. Wouldn’t you know she, another black woman, and a black man tried to tell me that I was just “exceptional”? That I am not the “average” black woman; the “average” black woman could never get a white guy of the caliber of my boyfriend.

    I tell you, speaking to black people online has convinced me that some black people have totally lost it. Or they just have zero regard for black women. Or both.

    You also said,

    “It s one thing to have self esteem issues, but why [must] they paint ME with that brush?

    Leave me out of it – they are tainting all of us with it!”

    Exactly!

    Speak for yourself, not me. I’m fine. Alee is at the bottom of no one’s barrel.

    “…don’t women realize that men are competitive? Nobody wants to date someone who thinks she is a LOSER!”

    Yup, that’s going to get the guys. Run around crying and saying that no one wants you and other black women. That will make them flock by the droves!

    It’s like these women think they can shame, guilt, or make non-black men have pity on them and date them by saying this. Wrong.

    medley, you said,

    ‘I may be off (probably am), but I first starting hearing that slur “bottom of the barrel” after articles and polls done about interracial dating.’

    I think you’re partly right about this. But I think the idea has also been supported by media (especially black media) that tell black women covertly that they aren’t wanted unless they are of a certain appearance. Combine that with the real life damage that is done to black women by other black women, black men, etc. that trash black women’s natural looks, tell them they can’t date interracially while black men can and do, etc, and there you go.

    • ak says:

      ‘But she fought me and said that it’s the general experience of black women to have trouble dating “out”. I told her that hasn’t been my experience. Wouldn’t you know she, another black woman, and a black man tried to tell me that I was just “exceptional”? That I am not the “average” black woman; the “average” black woman could never get a white guy of the caliber of my boyfriend.

      I tell you, speaking to black people online has convinced me that some black people have totally lost it. Or they just have zero regard for black women. Or both.

      Yes, all these backhanded disses and put-downs as if BW have trouble dating out ‘all of the time’ because we’re just some weird creatures or something.

    • Ali says:

      Alee – girl . . . . . . welcome to the blog!!

      I’m so very very glad you’re here, and glad to know I’m not crazy! 🙂

      This stuff is so interesting, I’d love to see Khadija take this up in a separate post, but part of this is due to the (now infamous) ok cupid study, which was easily picked apart by people in comments following the study. Of course, all of that was ignored.

      I’d be happy to explain why it the study is misquoted and misinterpreted point by point when/if this comes up in a post, but the really scary part is that so many BW immediately (and happily) snatched it up as their new mantra. Think of all the studies we read about every day:

      “fat is bad for you”

      “fat is good for you”

      “WW have a better chance to be killed by a terrorist than get married over 35”

      “dogs smarter than cats” I kid you not – see funny link:

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5552628/Dogs-are-smarter-than-cats-research-shows.html

      “Cats smarter than dogs” That study hasn’t been done yet, but I guarantee it’s coming – just wait . . . ☺

      My point is that you can find a study proving or disproving anything you like nowadays! I know a science writer – when she’s under a deadline, she literally thinks things up she BELIVES to be true and goes searching for a study to prove it. It isn’t hard AT ALL. And she only quotes rigorous, reputable studies – there are thousands of unreputable ones that she will not touch.

      That’s why you need to be careful and read studies with a grain of salt and a little common sense. Most people chuckle or shrug and move on with their lives. (with the exception of the WW/terrorist study, which caused widespread panic before people found out (years later) it was COMPLETELY FALSE.)

      And yet I’ve seen bw providing links to the study in their responses to posts – this is 100% true I swear. Men who never HEARD of the study will say “I love bw, I’d love to date one” The bw will say – no, you’re lying, that’s not possible – and link the study! Or even worse, they link a newspaper reporting the study, so they’re not even looking at the raw data.

      There’s something else going on here, and I think it has to do with BWE and the next phase.

      Right now a lot of women are getting the message, and bw/wm couples are slowly starting to increase.

      With the new interest from BW comes a price that I haven’t seen discussed as much.

      There are some BW who are unable to meet quality men for reasons TOTALLY UNRELATED TO THEIR SKIN COLOR.

      We’ve already discussed the weight thing on this blog, and how some bw blame their race for the reason they can’t get dates when it’s their weight -there’s no need to go into that again.

      But what about bw who have crummy personalites? What about lack of flirting skills? What if they’re clingy? What if they give out a ghetto vibe? What if they only go to ‘black’ social events? What if they’re always in a group with their 5 best girlfriends? What if they come across as cold or hard? What if they (God forbid) were abused as children and they’re still struggling with it? What is they work 60 hour weeks and they’re not going to meet a guy unless he drops down from heaven into their office with roses? What if they declare to every WM they date ‘I prefer BM, but I’m trying to be open minded’?

      What if (as I brought up on another blog) what if the woman is VASTLY overestimating her league? She wants to date a wealthy George Clooney type but she looks like Monique. So when George says ‘Thanks, but no thanks” to her, she runs to blogs run around declaring that white men hate BW, BW are bottom of the barrel.

      THAT is what I think was going on with the woman you were arguing with. She had personal issues that she was trying to attach to her RACE – and to YOU.

      I’m seeing this more and more. When you argue with women like these, they fight back HARD because it means the problem might be personal, and the issue might be theirs. It’s much better (for them) to foist it on all black women everywhere. I’m not being totally clear because I’m still figuring it out, but do you see what I mean?

      I remember reading a dating question about a woman who was having love woes. She was in her thirties and she had just been on her very first date – she was still waiting to be kissed. When she wrote, there were plenty of sympathetic responses and suggestions. She acknowledged that her figure/weight might be a factor, others cited possible childhood issues with trust, expanding her social circle, etc. But NOBODY said anything about race. You know why? Because she was white. She never said ‘men don’t like ww – it’s because of my race’. Everyone focused on her and her personal issues.

      I remember thinking – if this was a BW at the exact same level of attractiveness, she would IMMEDIATELY point to her race. And that would be the end of the discussion.

      After all, you can’t change your race, can you?

      I think that this will be the next challenge for BWE. A lot of bw are going to find IR dating different, but straightforward. Some will find it a bit more difficult, but they’ll adjust. Still others will have a very hard time or at least not be able to date the guys they really want to date.

      Those woman will then rush around with the ‘nobody wants bw’, bottom of the totem pole’ mantra.

      Because if they didn’t, that means they might have a problem.

      So Alee, people like you must be exceptional, or something like that. Because if you’re living a good life, what’s their excuse?

      Nobody’s saying there aren’t terrible bad stereotypical images of BW out there; along with a few sexy, positive stereotypical images. But even those awful ‘Precious’ images can work in an individual bw’s favor, as I explained in another post, because the soujouner is standing out as the exception.

      Like it or not, BW have a lot less to ‘live up to’ then WW – average ww are being compared to Kiera Knightly, while we’re being compared to Queen Latifah. Who has more to live up to? That is why the WW’s self-esteem is so often very low.

      And stereotypes like ‘loyalty’ and ‘loves to cook’ and ‘speaks her mind’ can just as easily be twisted to work for you, and not against you!

      Hmmm. . . .I’m rambling now, but I’d like to discuss more on this sometime.

      This sure has been a HOT topic Khadija! Whew . . . . . . . . covered in sweat over here 🙂

      • Ali,

        You said, “THAT is what I think was going on with the woman you were arguing with. She had personal issues that she was trying to attach to her RACE – and to YOU.

        I’m seeing this more and more. When you argue with women like these, they fight back HARD because it means the problem might be personal, and the issue might be theirs. It’s much better (for them) to foist it on all black women everywhere. I’m not being totally clear because I’m still figuring it out, but do you see what I mean?”

        Ali, THANK YOU for figuring that out. I believe you’re absolutely right. These BW are trying to turn an individual issue—that’s personal to THEM—into a mass, racial issue. All in order to take the spotlight OFF of the personal deficits…, err, I mean challenges…that they need to work on.

        Expect Success!

      • ak says:

        I’m sorry but I have to say this. ‘Loyalty’ sounds like they’re talikg about…… a dog. Just like devotion sounds like you might be talking about a dog.

      • ZooPath says:

        “What if (as I brought up on another blog) what if the woman is VASTLY overestimating her league? She wants to date a wealthy George Clooney type but she looks like Monique. So when George says ‘Thanks, but no thanks” to her, she runs to blogs run around declaring that white men hate BW, BW are bottom of the barrel.”

        Ali, I think you put your finger on at least 50% of the etiology of this malady. I see the same behavior from my unmarried nonblack and black female over 30 y/o friends. The nonblack women, however, blame their lack of success on there being “no good men”. Even year or so I will try to suggest things they could change to increase their chances of success such as: considering older very successful men, considering men that have started to lose their hair, considering men who are taller than them but not super tall, considering quality BM (I’ve told all of them repeatedly that they could pull a higher quality BM than I could) and seriously considering asian men instead of just doing perfunctory emails. Of the multiple friends that I’ve had these interventions with, only one kind of agreed with the AM suggestion but she didn’t really follow up on it. I’m also absolutely sure that none of them would give my husband the time of day if he had approached them. To each their own, I suppose, I can’t want it more than they do. I had a long talk with a 37 y/o AA friend who about IR and she kept saying that she didn’t like WM and if we were to IR date would prefer other POCS. The point that she’s 37, unmarried and yet wants to have children seems to get lost along the way. I only say these things once every 1.5 years of so and it’s like trying to convince someone to breathe air instead of trying to breathe water.

      • ak says:

        Ali:

        THAT is what I think was going on with the woman you were arguing with. She had personal issues that she was trying to attach to her RACE – and to YOU.

        I’m seeing this more and more. When you argue with women like these, they fight back HARD because it means the problem might be personal, and the issue might be theirs. It’s much better (for them) to foist it on all black women everywhere. I’m not being totally clear because I’m still figuring it out, but do you see what I mean?

        Thank you, thank you Ali. I see that kind of thing where some BW just want to hold the others back with the ‘It can’t be done’ or ‘This is what will happen to you too *insert bad thing*’ and I just feel like I wonder what the world would be like if people such as the Wright Brothers had listened to and followed the person/people saying that to them?

    • Alee,

      You’re welcome, and welcome aboard! 🙂

      Expect Success!

    • medley says:

      Alee said:
      I think you’re partly right about this. But I think the idea has also been supported by media (especially black media) that tell black women covertly that they aren’t wanted unless they are of a certain appearance.

      Co-sign.

  47. Joyousnerd says:

    The hurtful stereotypes about BW are going to be difficult to stop, and as more of us get wise, the attacks will increase. There isn’t much that I can see that we can really do about it.

    However, being the utter opposite of that image makes an individual BW shine. Being slim, feminine in comportment, pleasant and cultured… these things make an individual BW draw the interest of quality men, WM in particular. Men in general are often drawn towards poaching women of other groups. Perhaps its because it makes them feel victorious (because to the victor go the spoils). WM have been convinced that most of us don’t want them, and so a well heeled BW is quite the draw.

    Just like Asian women took their horrible image of being servile prostitutes and worked to mold it to their own ends, we would be well served to do the same to the extent that we are able.

    The stereotype is that AA women are loyal to these shiftless negros, even when it is to their own detriment. The positive angle to work is that BW are faithful and reliable. See? Nobody said things were perfect but we can do well individually with what we’ve got.

    • ak says:

      Exactly Joyousnerd. Full Metal Jacket, I’m thinking, must have done horrible damage, or was probably a quick reminder of the horrible damage to the reputation of immigrant Asian women to the US. But 25 years later, Asian American women have been able to bounce back from it, but they took action, and when they go for WM they don’t go slumming for it in the trailer parks or for the type who want some kind of slave much like the ones who want drama-filled, video hoochie stereotypes, they go for the quality ones, or the Alphas.

  48. APA says:

    I think the take away message from this discussion is that black women should evaluate men on an individual basis. I’ve always been open to all men. However, I haven’t done much dating in college because I’m not really sure how to put myself out there. The people that I meet are always shocked when I tell them that I don’t have a boyfriend. It makes me wonder if I’m missing something when it comes to interacting with men. I hope my love life improves once I’ve graduated. It’s just frustrating because all the decent guys that I meet already have girlfriends.

    As for fetishes, I think BW should learn to distinguish between a man who has a genuine appreciation/admiration for their beauty and man who has a pathological obsession with their physical characteristics. In addition, I find it funny that BW in the BC (i.e. not the BW in this forum) are alarmed by the fact that WM have a fetish for black women, but think nothing of the fact the BM are the ringleaders when it comes to fetishizing BW. Do King, Smooth, Black Men’s Magazine, and rap videos mean anything to these women? In fact, most BW welcome BM’s pathological obsession with big behinds, big breasts, and tiny waists, which is why so many BW have a desire to be “thick,” because they want to appeal to BM, who don’t truly care for BW.

    BW have a history of viewing denigrating behavior as complementary, which is I why understand the need of some readers to emphasize the fact that WM who have a fetish for BW should be avoided. However, I think that it is a nonessential point because most of the women in this forum are more enlightened than the average BW and don’t need to be told such an obvious fact.

    Let’s move forward and discuss more important topics that have the ability to improve our lives. I’m really interested in the point one poster brought up about utilizing existing, favorable stereotypes about BW to our advantage when it comes to dating and marriage.

    Thanks for providing such a great forum! I’m trying to make an effort to participate in more conversations because I don’t want to be counted among those habitual lurkers who take without giving. However, it’s intimidating voicing my opinion because the ladies here are much more mature and wiser than I am, but I’ll try my best!

    • Lisa99 says:

      The people that I meet are always shocked when I tell them that I don’t have a boyfriend.

      I agree with the general point of your post, but this part right here needs to be examined more.

      Having a boyfriend is not in and of itself a symbol of anything. Just because a woman is pretty, nice, cute, etc., doesn’t mean that she is automatically supposed to “have a man.” Be wary of people who are “shocked” that you are single (I bet they’re mostly men)… a lot of their “shock” is more sinister than you think… they are judging you negatively for not “having a man,” when it’s not a badge of honor to just have a man. Plus, if you are barely out of college or about to graduate, why is it so necessary or shocking to them that you don’t have a boyfriend? A LOT of women don’t have boyfriends at that age!

      My point is this. A lot of BW “have a man.” I don’t know how many of these BW have quality men. While you should be trying to date quality men, please don’t get a boyfriend just for the sake of having one. I know women who “had boyfriends” for all of their teens and 20s and they’re still single and unmarried today (and they want to marry). None of those “boyfriends” turned out to be about much.

      I’d rather stay single and have people be “shocked” that I don’t have a boyfriend than settle for a DBR man for the sake of saying that I have a boyfriend. All of those people who were “shocked” that I didn’t have a boyfriend (but never wanted to introduce me to any quality men) were “shocked” years later when I on my own went out and found a quality man and in a short period of dating time, announced that I was engaged.

      Why were they shocked? Because someone did what they wouldn’t do and pursued me in an honorable fashion… and decided to marry me!

      So yes, definitely focus on improving your efforts to date (and eventually marry) a quality man, but stop worrying about the fact that you don’t have a boyfriend right now. The mere act of having a boyfriend doesn’t “prove” anything about your desirability, nor does it ensure that you have the RIGHT type of man.

      • SweetIslandGirl says:

        100% Agree on this post. Its worth its weight in gold. I hope other lurkers take this post to heart and learn from this information because from my experience this has been true. When I was younger I got the same “shock” and I coudlnt understand why till I eventually I figured out.

        Thank you Lisa

      • Best action plan. Ever. This is great advice. taking notes

      • APA says:

        This is excellent advice. I need to remind myself of this more often.

        Thanks Lisa99!

  49. shocol says:

    Neecy said…

    It bothers me so many BW offer themselves up even knowing deep down everyone else benefits EXCEPT us. Its almost as if BW believe by doing this its going to gain us favor with the very people who are benefiting at our expense. “if we just go along with it eventually it will work out on our behalf” is what i feel many BW think and say to themselves. At what point do BW just accept it and move away from the comfort zone of being the “mule, mammy”? Its okay for a BW to not be someones mule and stomping mat….

    Recently I observed (mostly) and participated (briefly) in an Internet discussion, the outcome of which was really shocking to me. Apparently among AA women, there is still a protected class which cannot be asked, “Cui buono?”. IMO, if AA women cannot ask in good faith “Cui buono?”, irrespective of race, ethnicity, gender and individual feelings, there is more work to be done.

  50. mochachoc says:

    I’m a little late to the conversation but no matter.

    It strikes me that whilst well intentioned the warnings to BW to ‘watch out, AW are being abused so lets not emulate them’ helps to reinforce the negative messages BW get from those invested in keeping us from exploring new possibilities.

    I think Khadija is interested in why many BW allow the fetish meme to prevent them from forging productive relationships with WM when most have not encountered the experience. Why do we buy into the obvious tactic to keep us in line? Sometimes I do wonder whether most BW really do want loving, lovable, quality men when the evidence speaks otherwise. We seem addicted to ill treatment. Is it some weird mass Stockholm syndrome at play here? People are pointing the way but the number of ‘ifs’,’buts’, ‘watch outs’, ‘don’t go there cos…’, is mind boggling. I don’t get it.

    Aren’t we adults capable of self agency? I’m tired of hearing that BW are the mules of the world or the ‘bottom of the heap’. I most certainly do not believe that for one minute. And you know, buying into that is a disgrace. It’s a ‘woe is me, I cannot do better’ mantra. How our female ancestors must look down on us and shake their heads.

    Who benefits? Right now I’d say BW because there is some mileage in waving the victim banner.

    • Mochachoc,

      You said, “Who benefits? Right now I’d say BW because there is some mileage in waving the victim banner.”

      I would agree that BW must feel that they’re gaining some emotional mileage out of all this waving of “bottom of the barrel”-hate speech-banner. And I believe the emotional pay-off of that banner is that it gives many BW what they feel is an excuse for NOT even trying to be competitive relative to other women in the dating and marriage realms.

      It gives them an excuse for trying to opt OUT of the competition of life. [Which never really works. There’s no such thing as opting out of life’s various competitions. All it means it that you guarantee that you lose while others keep on pushing to win.] It comforts them for the various losses the incur by not bothering to compete.

      I’ve been giving a lot of thought to the questions that Ali raised about this ever-increasing self-inflicted death blow of “bottom of the barrel”-hate speech:

      (1) Where did this “bottom of the barrel” script originally come from? My hunch is that it probably originated with AA males during the entrenchment of hip-hop/(c)rap culture among AAs. AA women have the nasty habit of adopting and running with whatever viciously anti-BW mess that AA males come up with. Ex. 1: the success of Steve Harvey’s screeds. Ex. 2: Women like Shahrazad Ali selling books, and going on speaking tours “justifying” violence against BW, and repeating Ike Turner talking points.

      (2) What can we do to get other BW to stop spreading that “bottom of the barrel” poison? Very little, at this point. It’s too far gone. And the amount of heavy and prolonged time/energy investment needed to make them stop is prohibitively expensive from my point of view.

      I’ve been doing a mental review of how most historical resistance movements dealt with that sort of internal backstab behavior from members of their demographic base: They often KILLED collaborators. And resistance movements usually only had to execute a handful of folks for other wannabe collaborators to get the message to CEASE and DESIST. For example, the French Resistance during WWII was NOT gentle or kind to French people who did things to advance the Nazi agenda in occupied France. It didn’t matter if they were confused or not. All that mattered to the Resistance was the damage these other French folks were doing to French freedom; and making them stop.

      In our context, a serious campaign to encourage the BW who are actively running around spreading that “bottom of the barrel” hate speech to nonblack forums to CEASE and DESIST would include actions such as:

      (a) making a list of these BW nuts;

      (b) making a point of flooding the nonblack forums they drop that poison at with our own COUNTER comments;

      (c) making of point of visiting these BW’s blogs to comment about our displeasure with their choice to spread “bottom of the barrel” hate speech;

      {d) contacting the deans, alumni, etc. at whatever university wherever the BW nut that Ali mentioned is doing her dissertation at, and express our disappointment at the idea that a responsible educational institution would entertain that sort of racist hate speech as a legitimate research project. If they approve this lunatic BW’s mess, then what’s next? Dissertations to so-called “prove” Black inferiority? Just because of Black-skinned person suggests something does not automatically prevent that “something” from being racist and anti-Black.

      (e) Finding out who that BW actress was in the Superbowl commercial and doing everything possible to block her from ever working again—which is what Jewish groups do whenver somebody crosses them in some way.

      In a peaceful context, chasing down and inflicting sanctions on folks is an extremely long-term endeavor. For it work right, the activists and/or organizations involved have to be in it for the LONG HAUL.

      Considering that from what one WAOD commenter said about how most BW readers at a popular Black gossip site were NOT offended by that commercial, then I feel that it’s not worth the time & energy investment to enforce the sanctions it would take to discourage these BW from running around spreading that “bottom of the barrel” hate speech. I feel that our time & energy would be better invested in separating ourselves—in EVERY way possible—from these deranged masses of BW who can’t be offended by anything, no matter how insulting or degrading it is toward them.

      *Addendum*
      Let me emphasize that I don’t want anybody to interpret the above comment as me suggesting that folks shouldn’t personally boycott whoever and whatever they feel needs to be boycotted because of that Superbowl commercial. Everybody needs to do whatever they feel is best.

      Expect Success!

      • Lisa99 says:

        I would agree that BW must feel that they’re gaining some emotional mileage out of all this waving of “bottom of the barrel”-hate speech-banner. And I believe the emotional pay-off of that banner is that it gives many BW what they feel is an excuse for NOT even trying to be competitive relative to other women in the dating and marriage realms.

        It gives them an excuse for trying to opt OUT of the competition of life. [Which never really works. There’s no such thing as opting out of life’s various competitions. All it means it that you guarantee that you lose while others keep on pushing to win.] It comforts them for the various losses the incur by not bothering to compete.

        I had a young BW basically admit once to everything you said.

        This was a BW who deliberately visited hateful sites created by BM and white racist/Neo-Nazi sites.

        Then after reading those sites, she would talk about how sad she felt about the “lowly place” BW occupied in the world.

        So, eventually, someone would ask, “Why the HECK are you going to those sites? Especially one that’s run by neo-Nazis? Why would you willingly subject yourself to this?”

        Eventually she said that because of the low self-esteem she felt in her own life (and the fact that BM would pass her up while she was in college for lighter BW and non-BW), she needed to find something that would be oddly comforting in a way and give her meaning in her pain.

        In other words, hearing angry BM and neo-Nazi WM talk badly about BW made her feel justified in believing that the world was against her and that her negative feelings about herself were justified, because after all, here were whole communities of men who admitted that they hated BW!

        These are also women that I find like to jump onto sites in which IR-married BW or happily IR dating BW share their experiences and then post a link to a message board of WM fools who post for pages about how they think BW are ugly. Or post links to a story about how an Indian man killed his black daughter-in-law. Or put up a picture of the ugliest WM alive and say that if they have to settle for that guy, they’ll just stay single. Or post that most WM’s mothers won’t accept it if their son brings home a BW.

        The more one gets to know these BW, one learns that they’re not dating ANYONE (BM, WM, AM, HM). And there are usually very obvious reasons for that… and they subconsciously know it… but instead of trying to work on those things to improve their dating lives, they go after the BW who are happy in relationships and undercut BW who are sharing their real-life success stories regarding IR dating and relationships.

        • ak says:

          Hopefully that young woman will grow out of it because at my stage of life right now dealing with an older BW who kept looking at such depleting ‘media’ would tire me out. I’d just be plum tuckered out.

      • Ali says:

        Sigh . . . . Khadijah, I was afraid you would say it was a hopeless cause. I just wanted to paste this for any interested women – they started a Pepsi petition at change.org, if you wish to sign it:

        http://www.change.org/petitions/boycott-pepsi—racist-superbowl-commercial-stereotypes-black-women

        • ak says:

          As I live in the UK now, there’s no more Super Bowl anymore! Not that I ever missed it….LOL But I have just seen a viral of that Pepsi Max commercial and Oy. Gevalt. ! They had the black woman looking as if she had no control of her emotional impulses like a caveman or something!

      • Zoopath says:

        I agree, that would be a lot of tremendous investment of energy that makes me tired just thinking about it. I don’t think I’ll be chasing down these bottom barrel women. I can get on board with punishing actors and avoiding online forums that traffic in this poison. I think that such talk should be shut down immediately so that people who want to says such things learn quickly that it’s not okay to go around generalizing their self-hatred to all BW.

      • lunanoire says:

        This is spot on!

        I gave up for about 15 years, starting in high school, based on the undermining ways people treated BW and BG in the multicultural environment I grew up in, combined w/ unstreated depression. For years, I perversely wished to be a fat person who loses weight and then their life improves dramatically. But as a thin person, I couldn’t blame the situation on my weight.

        Things appear to be changing for the better for BG these days, but it’s not just personality issues that lead to BG having non AA friends but no dates b/c social pressure can be strong for many kids, though others like to rebel.

        Like many other areas of life, BW have to me more resilient than is typically required of others in order to succeed. Nothing new.