Reader-Inspired Course Corrections From Joyous Nerd And Roslyn

The willingness to listen with humility, to accept correction, and to engage in self-correction are qualities that I value. In that spirit, I’ve decided to imitate one of my favorite bloggers, Fabius Maximus, by doing an ongoing series of posts documenting instances (as they occur) where readers have either corrected my misconceptions or pointed out blind spots in my thinking. As I’ve always stressed, I’m definitely not any sort of guru, and I learn a lot from listening to the readers. Here are the most recent reader-inspired course corrections in my thinking.

JOYOUS NERD POINTS OUT AN IMPORTANT POINT THAT I MISSED ABOUT THE VIDEOS THAT CIRCULATE AMONG AFRICAN-AMERICANS

We had a recent conversation about a video currently being discussed at various Black blogs. The video apparently shows a Black man attacking a Black woman (who was wearing a tight dress) as she walks past him and some other Black men. A reader named Joyous Nerd said the following,

I also refuse to watch poison like that. I wonder to what degree these videos are made to be propaganda. They certainly provide a sounding board for the BM-protectionists and their lapdogs to give the “rules” once more… to list the many regulations we BW have to meet or else face the consequences. Maybe I’m giving people too much credit; maybe it’s not as well thought out as all of that. But it does seem to me that these images and the comments that come with them serve to intimidate and threaten black women into doing what black men want or else risk terrible consequences.

I was speaking to a young BW about the problem of street harassment that BW face from BM. She told me that she always speaks respectfully to these deadbeats standing around on the corner. The reason she makes this choice is because she remembers a rap video from the early 90’s in which a BW refuses to entertain some BM’s advances, and she is humiliated publicly by having some alcohol sprayed all over her. After watching that video, this girl told herself that she would make sure to always speak respectfully to these men in order to avoid a similar reaction. How many little girls watched that video over and over, allowing the “inception” to take firm root?

Even if there isn’t some gaggle of hateful BM in an underground bunker making plots, lol, the result is still one that privileges BM and oppresses BW.

In response, I said,

This angle hadn’t occurred to me. This is exactly what’s up with these videos. To borrow a concept from systems theory, The Purpose of a System Is What It Does (POSIWID):

“POSIWID (the purpose of the system is what it does) is a way of thinking about complex systems, giving us a different perspective on a range of social and political issues. When we understand the complex loops that maintain the status quo, we are better equipped to make positive changes in organizations and society.

The origins of POSIWID thinking
The term POSIWID was coined by Stafford Beer. It was picked up and developed further in a trio of books written in the 1980s by engineer Bill Livingston.

Approach
The POSIWID principle applies a kind of backwards logic to systems thinking – from effects to causes.

If a complex system produces a given outcome, or if a given outcome emerges from a complex system, then we may assume some purpose linked to this outcome. This is a useful guide for investigation and interpretation. Ignore the official purpose of the system, ignore what the designers and custodians of a system say, and concentrate on its actual behaviour. (emphasis added) http://www.squidoo.com/POSIWID

Violent BM predators and their enablers (including BW lapdogs) don’t have to be involved in a conscious, deliberate conspiracy to act in ways that support one overall system: the escalating violent subjugation of BW within the AA collective—The Purpose of a System Is What It Does (POSIWID). And what these people are doing is enforcing some depraved social rules among those AA women who are misguided enough to remain among them.

BM predators and their protectors don’t have to be huddled and plotting in a bunker to accomplish the end result you described when you said, “But it does seem to me that these images and the comments that come with them serve to intimidate and threaten black women into doing what black men want or else risk terrible consequences.”

Well…that’s exactly what’s been happening. On several angles. This didn’t occur to me until you said that. There are a number of AA women who have been conditioned by these videos to accept these attacks as being “normal.” There are others, like the young BW you mentioned, who don’t accept these attacks as “normal,” but have been conditioned to alter their own behavior in hopes of appeasing the (potential) BM predators they encounter.

Whether people are aware of it or not, there are always some sort of social rules being constantly enforced. The rules cans be contradictory and irrational. But there are always rules. And no matter whether the enforcement is consistent or arbitrary, rules are enforced.

Sometimes the enforcement is silent and by way of omission (the quiet withdrawal of support from somebody who has run afoul of some social rule). Sometimes the enforcement is blatant. From scanning recent online headlines (I didn’t read the story), Kanye West is whining about how he’s still feeling the pinch from having experienced WM enforcing their social rules about how WW are to be treated. {chuckling} I doubt that Mr. West will be so quick to publicly disrespect a WW ever again. {more chuckling}

You asked, “How many little girls watched that video over and over, allowing the “inception” to take firm root?”

This is what makes Black Exploitation Television and 99.99% of AA-produced content (Messence, etc.) so dangerous. The modern cultural “norms” that AA women and girls are being indoctrinated into are increasingly depraved. That’s why it’s essential for AA women to STOP consuming 99.99% of AA-produced content and replace it with life-enhancing materials.

ROSLYN HOLCOMB POINTS OUT HOW AFRICAN-AMERICANS’ PAST EFFORTS AT BLACK NATIONALISM HAD THE UNINTENDED EFFECT OF REINFORCING AN INFERIORITY COMPLEX

During another recent conversation, author Roslyn Hardy Holcomb opened my eyes about one of my previous long-term, cherished illusions when she said,

I think a good deal of this inferiority complex stems from the pseudo-black nationalism that so many spout. There is an innate part of us that wants to belong. We’ve been told that American culture is not our culture (despite the fact that much of what makes America, America was created by us). That to be a part of America is to be a sell-out. To me, that’s a white supremacist mindset on it’s very face. It is to say that this unique African American culture we’ve created is somehow subpar or less than. Because many of us believe that America is ONLY about white people, we literally make ourselves refugees in our own country. (emphasis added)

In reply, I said,

This NEVER occurred to me. It never occurred to me that our (pitiful) efforts at Black Nationalism served to reinforce an inferiority complex. {sigh} It was always easy for me to see how self-abasing integration-ism was. But I didn’t see how Black Nationalism did the same damage—only from the opposite angle. Thank you for providing this insight. {still shaking my head in shock at the thought}

. . . (I continued this thought while replying to another reader) . . . Unfortunately, this is yet another example of how our solutions can easily turn into new catastrophes when we’re not careful to safeguard our ethnic self-respect as AAs. And this hits home with me because I had always (naively) believed that recognizing our African pre-slavery origins would serve as an antidote for AAs’ mass lack of self-respect. It never occurred to me that this could—and did—backfire on AAs (as Roslyn explained).

…Yet another one of my long-term, cherished illusions bites the dust…

…D*mn… {very long sigh}

IF THERE’S SOMETHING YOU WANT ME TO RETHINK, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO SEND ME SOME INFORMATION IN SUPPORT OF YOUR VIEWS

As you can see, at times I make course corrections in my views in response to readers’ input. I’ve never been in training to be Joseph Stalin. The purpose of this post is not to rehash the above points; they were thoroughly discussed during the conversations in which they were raised. So, I’m not going to publish comments that rehash these two discussion points. I don’t want to go backwards with these conversations; I want to keep moving forward.

However, I am inviting audience members to use this and future Reader-Inspired Course Correction posts to raise other points (of disagreement or otherwise) that you want me to rethink and reconsider. This ties into my overall policy about dissent: I have no problem with dissent about the means that are suggested for achieving the goal of lifestyle optimization for African-American women and girls. However, I refuse to engage in lengthy discussions with people who are opposed to the very goal of lifestyle optimization for African-American women and girls. Of course, there’s no guarantee that I’ll change my mind; but I will consider all information that’s put forth.

PLEASE ALSO CONSIDER THIS AN “OPEN FORUM” OPPORTUNITY

This invitation doesn’t only include points of disagreement. Feel welcome to bring up issues you’d like to discuss that I haven’t talked about. Please consider these Reader-Inspired Course Correction posts as “open forum” posts.

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90 Responses to “Reader-Inspired Course Corrections From Joyous Nerd And Roslyn”

  1. pioneervalleywoman says:

    Greetings, Khadija!

    I wanted to add another angle to what Roslyn spoke of regarding pan-Africanism.

    When I had more connections to people in the world of Af-Am Studies in academia (some time ago), it was more than apparent that was the pervasive mindset in some departments, and it was one which was taught to college students, that African culture is superior to African American culture, and that African Americans needed to take a back seat, since “big brother/sister” has the real African culture. There are, however, other programs in Af-Am Studies where this mindset does not pervade as fully, there is a recognition that diaspora African-based cultures are unique and equally important.

    I recall chatting once with two other colleagues, an Afro-Carib woman but Af-Am identified like me, and another woman who was African. The African colleague was speaking about some event or programming and she asked, “why all this talk about African Americans? Where is the discussion of Africa?” My eyebrows almost hit the ceiling; this was one of those “yes, Virginia” moments. The Afro-Carib colleague explained that was the attitude held by many Africans who teach Af-Am Studies. In their mind, Af-Am Studies should be all about Africa.

    So this has been a fall-out of the inferiority complex–African Americans wanting to identify as “African” and minimizing African American culture/history/etc.

  2. PioneerValleyWoman,

    Yep. And since I don’t want to rehash the earlier conversation about this, let me emphasize the angle to that situation you described that is the working title of my next post: Sometimes When People Hate You…They JOIN You.”

    An enemy or rival that is open in their hostility/competition and therefore remains aloof from you is actually much kinder than an enemy/rival who joins you.

    I thought of this while reading a couple of readers’ comments from a recent post. YMB said,

    It’s a shame that the majority of AA women are so concerned with being inclusive and fair to others that they’ve become willing accomplices in pushing themselves to the sidelines, except for when it comes to depictions of the obese, the ignorant, the depraved, or the freakish. When desirable images of BW are presented, the majority of the time it is biracial and/or Latina women being shown. I have seen plenty of loud, déclassé, overweight, and unattractive mixed race women, yet none of those women get tapped to fill such roles in cinema or TV.

    …I wanted to add that this last aspect was on my mind after reading another article on the site where that article about GB’s Elle cover was originally posted. The gist of the article was basically to take BW readers to task for questioning the website’s prominently featuring biracial/multiracial and latina women like Zoe Saldana when the target audience is black women.

    Khadija, I am so grateful to you for pointing out this pattern in previous posts. It is now so easy for me to see through the standard “hating on/jealous” and “we must be inclusive” bullpucky arguments.

    Later on, Magenta said,

    I saw the “we must be inclusive/we are all women of color in this together/mixed chicks and afro-latinas are black too, stop being jealous of us!” nonsense in the discussion YMB is alluding to and I just laughed. While it is not funny, I am just shocked at how some people are still buying into this multiculturalism farce. The multicultural rainbow girls are like clockwork, beating BW over the head with this “women of color” mess when they want street cred, a black acting role, or are on the prowl for a BM to hook up with. And there are still confused BW running to their defense, lecturing others about inclusion??? To call them out on their opportunistic behavior is somehow “divisive”?

    To be honest I can’t blame the rainbow girls. They are just doing what is necessary to stay at the top of the pecking order. Can you imagine what would happen if all the monoracial, “plain”, “regular-looking” BW found their self worth and woke up? These “women of color” don’t want that kind of competition. Again, I am not mad at them. I just want us to be just as shrewd as they are and stop being so naive.

    We’ll talk about this particular “killing a rival softly by joining them” strategy in the next post.

    Expect Success!

  3. Sharifa says:

    Thank you for the opportunity of an ‘open forum.’ I don’t have a point of dissention to bring up, just an issue that I think is related to a specific method of lifestyle optimization for African American women that I wanted to get your thoughts on. My question relates to African American women and interracial marriage.

    Many BWE bloggers have suggested that African American women not limit themselves to BM for suitable husbands. I totally agree. But I’m concerned about what might be a consequence of this choice, and more specifically how one might deal with it. You’ve written about ‘hair-flipers,’ ‘so-called bi-racials,’ and others who either downplay their blackness or seek to identify with the 1/2000th portion of their ancestry that isn’t black. My question is, how does a sojourner chose among the global village for a husband without running the risk of giving birth to a future ‘hair-flipper’ or ‘bi-racial’ (or someone who does not identify as African American at all). Note that I do recall a post/book chapter where you make the distinction between someone who happens to have white heritage and a person who tries to escape their black heritage (I hope that was a fair summary).

    To demonstrate that I’ve thoght about the question, and a possible answer, I remember a quote by Tiger Woods to the effect of, “I’m Cablinasian, but my heart is Thai.” What I take from that is that as women are often the bearers and transmitters of culture, they have the greatest power in shaping their children’s identity formation and cultural experience/identification. In essence, the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. So that if an African American women has a non-black husband, she still influences the level of knowledge and pride her children have in their African American heritage, and can lower the chances that her children will engage in self-hating ‘hair-flipping’ and skin shade racism, etc.

    My aim is not to derail the converstation, or rehash old topics, but rather to discuss the possible implications of a lifestyle optimization choice, and figure out what one might do about it.

    If you have written about this issue either on the previous blog or in your book (which I read =), then please direct me there, as I may have overlooked it. This may have been touched on in the comment sections as well.

    Looking forward to your thoughts on this issue and the upcoming post you hinted at.

    • Sharifa,

      You’re welcome, and I’m happy you asked that. It’s not considered “derailing” when it’s open forum—that’s the whole point of the forum being open. 🙂

      I’ve always disliked that particular invented term, “biracial.” The entire point and purpose of that term is to separate out certain Black people from the Black category. It’s a term that’s designed to create a wedge group of disloyal, anti-Black racist fifth columnists in our midst. These so-called “biracials” are typically people who want to be considered “Black” like every other Black/AA person when there’s something to be gained, such as affirmative action slots, scholarships and stipends intended for Black students, etc. When there’s nothing to steal from Black folks, then these “biracials” want to make sure we know that they are NOT Black like us.

      My understanding of the history of that term is that anti-Black, racist WW who were hooked up to BM—and who DIDN’T want to have “Black” children—invented that term to try to remove their children from the “Black” category. Since it’s our informal tradition to be clueless, clueless BW have since taken that biracial word and run with it. These are the self-hating BW who raise anti-Black, racist, “don’t you dare call me Black” “hair flippers.” These BW are the SAME as Ne-Yo, Yung Berg, Russell Simmons, and so on.

      I also dislike the sort of (anti-Black) Black people who are frantic about having their half-Black children identified as anything-but-Black. As I said during this post at the previous blog,

      Beverly has brilliantly laid out a long-term strategy for our people to economically survive AND thrive. The participants at this think tank have been discussing how African-Americans can survive the emerging, RACIST to the core, Latino dominance of various fields of employment in the US since the post entitled “Geostrategy Nerd: What Would Mexico’s Sudden Collapse Mean for YOUR Prospects in the U.S.?”

      I am truly grateful for the contributions of those audience members who participate in the blog discussions here. Especially when we come together, reason together, and find practical solutions together! My reply to her comments are in blue. Beverly said:

      “Aisha said: ‘I think the only thing individual Blacks can do is make sure their education and personal achievements are top of the line, so they won’t be competing for jobs that a non-English speaker can do.’

      [Khadija speaking: I believe that what Aisha has suggested is a brilliant basic self-defense move. We have to start somewhere; and most of us have NOT sought out “top of the line” preparation for anything.]

      My response: I think this is a necessity; but it is a temporary solution at best. You see, what is happening is that Hispanic people are coming here and their goal is to achieve and become full-fledged white Americans.

      [Khadija speaking: Yep. And it’s working because White people are cooperating with identifying Latinos as “White.” Whites also cooperate with categorizing half-Asians as “White.” (Such as Keanu Reaves, etc.) They won’t do that with the offspring of Black folks.

      What confused Black folks who are the parents of “Don’t Call Me Black” self-proclaimed “biracials” refuse to understand is that we and our offspring are the ONLY ones permanently locked out of “becoming White” status. No matter how frantically these Black parents of “biracials” clamor to have their half-Black children categorized as White.]

      What will we do when their children are born here and speak English fluently (native speakers) and have a couple of degrees under their belt? They will still have the same mentality. Many of them will still only hire Hispanics and exclude Blacks. I saw this dynamic in Los Angeles ( I lived there for 7 years). In Los Angeles, you already have professional black people being excluded from jobs WITH the collusion of silly//self-hating blacks.

      [Khadija speaking: If we don’t do something quick, we’ll be S-O-L. This is why it’s imperative for every Black person who’s in a “gatekeeper” position to keep Latinos and Asians OUT, and NEVER, NEVER hire them! I’ve noticed that once Latinos and Asians get a toehold in a government office, or the private sector, they quickly work to develop an ethnic monopoly. They will even freeze White people out of employment when they get the chance. Everybody else is playing for keeps. We need to do the same. After all, we’re talking about our very survival as a people in this country.

      This is contrary to the “kumbaya kool-aid” that most of us have been quaffing, but the reality is that the odds of African-Americans being hired are better with WHITE gatekeepers than with Latino or Asian ones. We must always remember this.]

      Anyhoo, these type of racist, anti-Black, Black people are internal enemies to other Black people. And if we claim to be serious about “fighting anti-Black racism,” then we should resist these internal, anti-Black, Black racists in addition to the outside anti-Black racists.

      If we were resisting anti-Black racism across the board, then we’d ALSO direct our “fire” against anti-Black racists like: Ne-Yo (“all the good-looking kids are light-skinned”), Yung Berg (“I don’t date dark butts”), Tigger Woods (see his racist, anti-Black “jokes” later in this comment), and so on. Seriously resisting anti-Black racists across the board would require resisting many anti-Black racist BM and many BM’s anti-Black racist, half-other, so-called “biracial” creations (like Tigger Woods).

      It would also require purifying ourselves of anti-Black, Black women who are the SAME as the above-named men when it comes to their attitudes about other Black people. I’ve had some run-ins with this type of Black-hating BW at the previous blog. I’ve had to check some of those women about their statements. First, there were the thankfully small number BW commenters who solely fawned over so-called “biracial” children and never referred to Black children as beautiful or anything else positive. Then there were the thankfully small number of BW commenters who weren’t interested in QUALITY men, but were only in search of White men, irrespective of quality. As I told one such woman, she’s the SAME as Russell Simmons.

      I’ve cautioned those type of women NOT to come to my blog home with those sorts of statements.

      Weeding out these anti-Black, Black racists from our midst is the vulnerable underbelly to BWE work.

      There’s a world of difference between a normal, self-respecting Black person who happens to have a non-Black parent and these self-proclaimed “biracials.” These “biracials'” claim to fame is to constantly make sure that everybody knows that they are NOT Black (like other Black people). These self-proclaimed “biracials” are almost always anti-Black racists. They were raised by their Black-hating Black parent to hate other Black people.

      Tigger Woods is a perfect example of this (yes, I deliberately spelled it that way). His Thai mother couldn’t have raised him to be the anti-Black racist he is—without the cooperation of his Black-hating, Black father! And I refer to Tigger as an anti-Black racist in part because of his penchant for telling racist, anti-Black jokes, which I’ve previously mentioned:

      A while back, I came across a blog that referenced the racist, anti-Black “jokes” that Tigger Woods (yes, I deliberately typed it that way–for several reasons) told in the presence of a reporter in 1997.

      Here are a couple of Tigger’s comments:

      “What I can’t figure out,” Tiger Woods asks Vincent, the limo driver, “is why so may good-looking women hang around baseball and basketball. Is it because, you know, people always say that, like, black guys have big d*cks?”

      And:

      “He puts the tips of his expensive shoes together, and he rubs them up and down against each other. ‘What’s this?’ he asks the women, who do not know the answer. ‘It’s a black guy taking off his condom,’ Tiger explains.”

      See the December 7, 2009 entry at the Freedom Rider blog. http://freedomrider.blogspot.com/2009/12/what-i-cant-figure-out-tiger-woods-asks.html

      This says VOLUMES about how Tigger’s Black father and “hasn’t-said-a-peep-in-public-to- defend-her-own-son” Asian mother raised him to think about Black men and Black people.

      Children mostly imitate and mimic their parents’ attitudes. If the children’s parents are talking that “biracial” cr*p, then their children will be talking that mess. If the parents are raising their children to be self-respecting Black people who are one-half Other, then the children will most likely be self-respecting Black people.

      I totally agree with you when you said, “In essence, the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. So that if an African American women has a non-black husband, she still influences the level of knowledge and pride her children have in their African American heritage, and can lower the chances that her children will engage in self-hating ‘hair-flipping’ and skin shade racism, etc.”

      Expect Success!

      • Robynne says:

        Khadija, I’m really glad that you discussed this so frankly. In the comments section of another BWE blog that I visit from time to time, I saw some of the most anti-black sentiments being thrown about. The focus was on bm of course, but some of the things they said could not be strictly limited to bm. For instance, there was one commenter suggesting that bm are all inferior because they came from an inferior gene pool and suggested that it was better that none be born. If this woman is fully black, then at least half her DNA came from the inferior bm, lol. I was so blown away by that comment – it smacked of white racist eugenics. For a moment I thought it was a white supremacist troll pretending to be a black woman. I read some more and realized that was not the case. Furthermore, there was a comment from another poster who seemed deeply offended that someone identified her b-racial black son as black. I could see that commenter having an attack of the vapours. Again, I’m really glad you touched on this (again), because in my experience those who want to solely identify as biracial happen to have very anti-black mindsets. If you go to their websites, you will witness the vitriol firsthand. It’s almost like visiting a white nationalist site. As you know, I’m from the Caribbean, which historically has been structured around colouring, with the near whites taking the positions of dominance. This is because during the colonial era, there were not many whites about, and so to consolidate their position, they extended certain privileges to their half-white offspring – of course, they didn’t extend to them all the privileges that whites enjoyed. This pattern, while less entrenched, still continues in certain industries. I imagine there was less need for this kind of divide and conquer tactic here because of the sheer number of whites. If the anti-black biracials (I’m not talking about biracials who have no problem acknowledging their black heritage)have their way, the situation would mimic the situation that was present in islander colonial era society.

        • Robynne,

          You said, “For instance, there was one commenter suggesting that bm are all inferior because they came from an inferior gene pool and suggested that it was better that none be born. If this woman is fully black, then at least half her DNA came from the inferior bm, lol. I was so blown away by that comment – it smacked of white racist eugenics.”

          Oh yes, I saw that. Thankfully, the blog host did some swift corrective action in reply to that commenter (as I knew she would).

          You’ve brought up another nuance that I’d like to briefly mention. First, that the criterion can’t be whether or not a truthful and factual assertion is something that would be said on racist sites like Stormfront. Even a stopped watch is factually, truthfully correct twice a day.

          Just going by the odds, I would guess that every once in a while, something said on racist sites like Stormfront happens to actually be true. The problem with racist sites are the racist motivations for saying the things they say. Their hatred causes them to tell many, many lies. Which is one reason why I can’t stand intellectually dishonest people—that type of cultural and political dishonesty ultimately leads to genocide.

          Too often, Black folks want to silence any real discussion of our people’s serious, life-threatening problems out of fear that what we say will sound like something from Stormfront. That’s a luxury we can’t afford anymore—the circumstances are just too dire for that. Even if they weren’t, I don’t care about any of that. The lunatics at Stormfront and everywhere else are going to say whatever they were already inclined to say. Those nuts will say anything whether or not the “dirty laundry” is discussed. All I care about is whether or not a statement is factually true. And fixing the problems that have been identified during candid discussions.

          In terms of eugenics, there are some things I could say. Such as the fact that AA welfare queens, dope fiends, and illiterates having the most births among AA women is NOT a good thing for the AA collective. It’s NOT a good thing that the most competent, smartest people among AAs are having much fewer children than the AA prisoners, dope fiends and lifetime welfare recipients.

          You said, “Furthermore, there was a comment from another poster who seemed deeply offended that someone identified her b-racial black son as black. I could see that commenter having an attack of the vapours. Again, I’m really glad you touched on this (again), because in my experience those who want to solely identify as biracial happen to have very anti-black mindsets. If you go to their websites, you will witness the vitriol firsthand. It’s almost like visiting a white nationalist site.”

          Yeah. The BF Russell Simmons who drool over so-called biracial children don’t seem to understand that the bulk of these self-proclaimed “biracials” HATE their Black behinds too! It’s like these BF Russell Simmons have forgotten that they’re part of the category that is being spit on by these self-proclaimed biracials. That’s sick; and I would prefer that women like that stay away from my blog.

          You said, “If the anti-black biracials (I’m not talking about biracials who have no problem acknowledging their black heritage)have their way, the situation would mimic the situation that was present in islander colonial era society.”

          Oh yeah, that’s exactly the sort of plantation situation that those anti-Black so-called biracials are looking to recreate—with the help of their slave-minded Earl Woods/Russell Simmons/Debra Dickerson-Black parents. The Black parents of these “I Wannabe A South African Colored DURING Apartheid”-type of “biracials” are too stupid and intoxicated with racial self-hatred to see this.

          What I find truly hilarious are the divisions between the various “don’t you dare call me Black” so-called biracials. There’s friction between the visibly Black ones and the ones that can pass for White or something else other than Black.

          It’s all deeply sick. And it’s deeply anti-monoracial, non-exotic, BLACK AA women like me. I don’t support things that are anti-me or anti-women who are most like me.

          Expect Success!

          • Robynne says:

            “Too often, Black folks want to silence any real discussion of our people’s serious, life-threatening problems out of fear that what we say will sound like something from Stormfront. ”

            I understand this and I’ve seen this derailing tactic before – especially from the intellectually dishonest bp that you mentioned. On the other hand, It just struck me as odd that someone would run with such rhetoric without fully thinking through the ramifications and how it would affect her. Sometimes I feel that ill suited people should not be allowed to reproduce as well, but on the other hand I understand just what a slippery slope that is.

          • Aisha says:

            I read those disturbing comments on that blog as well, and it’s not the first time.

            My fear is that these wounded, racist Black women will damage the overall credibility of BWE. I certainly don’t want to be associated with them. How do we remove them from our ranks before they turn off self-respecting Black women?

          • kandika says:

            What makes you think that youre not exotic (regarding monoracial phenotype) a lot of black women i see of darker hues are getting along today–we actually do better away from colostruck people, (mostly black, or white women with VISIBLY black children) anyway

        • ak says:

          The Creoles of Louisiana were/are already just like that.

  4. KM says:

    Just wanted to point out, I hope this doesn’t stray completely from the subject:

    Most Af-Am studies programs advocate toppling the “system” while placing African culture (and by that, Africans) ahead of Af-Am culture (which IMO, comprises everything that AAs did before 1970). At the same time, there is constant pleading for reparations. It’s a Jedi Mind Trick set up to keep AAs and AA BW running around in circles while propping up Africans.

    There is constant deprogramming that has to be done yet every time you deprogram, the freedom is worth the pain.

  5. calpurnia says:

    ooooh it’s about time that someone said this about the ‘black nationalism’ movement was the same as the ‘white supremist’ movement!! ( two sides of the same coin)[and just as ‘colorstruck’] We are just a part of America as anyone else..I believe some of what goes off as white regional accents came from us as well (slightly) even the banjo, which they play in white bluegrass is from Africa—we used it in Jazz until the 1900s–also, don’t forget that ‘country’ music is from the mountains where many Indentured Irish slaves and Blacks were together….just a thought

  6. calpurnia says:

    Years ago, when they showed a black person in a group, it was always the dark skinned or brown skinned women. I think today, some of these biracial kids are cousins or siblings of the white kids, and it gives a subtle attraction to the product they are selling( they look cute together as well–if you remember the show “WISHBONE’ on PBS, the black boy next door looked like a cousin of the white girl–even though dark)..Of course i have nothing bad to say about biracial kids because i have one as well.

  7. calpurnia says:

    Our people who ridicule the educated guys among us have the biggest inferiority complex: since WHEN DID BEING EDUCATED BECOME ‘ACTIN WHITE’….HUH? It was when ‘black nationalism’ started rearing its ugly head, and now when we need so badly to become engineers, etc, we’re not there, the Arabs and Indians are taking the place.

    • Calpurnia,

      Please cite to where a Black Nationalist has ever said that being educated meant “acting White.”

      Have you ever read the works of any Black Nationalist thinkers?

      Have you ever heard any lectures by any Black Nationalist thinkers?

      Can you even name any Black Nationalist thinkers? I doubt it.

      I doubt it because I’ve never seen or heard any Black Nationalist leader, teacher, or thinker lift up being ignorant as a positive trait.

      I believe that a lot of y’all who have UNINFORMED, knee-jerk hatred of what you—out of sheer ignorance—mislabel as “Black Nationalism” are still working through childhood issues of being teased by other AA children. And so you HATE anything and everything that is unapologetically Black/AA-identified. Including “Black Nationalism.”

      I’m quite open about discussing the failures and mistakes of Black Nationalism. However, I DON’T appreciate you slandering Black Nationalism and Black Nationalists with false accusations—such as the big, fat greasy LIE you’re telling that “Black Nationalism” was responsible for defining education as “acting White.”

      I don’t like intellectually dishonest people. That sort of behavior always offends and angers me. It angers me to hear right-wing nuts tell lies about their political opponents. It angers me to hear religious fanatics tell lies about competing religions and their followers.

      It angers me to sit up and listen to you tell flat-out lies about Black Nationalist thinkers—thinkers that you’ve most likely never even heard of, much less ever read their works or ever listened to.

      If you can’t find any quotes to back up your assertion, then I strongly urge you to STOP telling that particular lie. You can vent your hatred of “Black Nationalism” while still sticking to the truth. There are plenty of actual mistakes that you can gloat over. You don’t have to make up lies about those people to convey how much you hate “Black Nationalism.”

      Expect Success!

  8. calpurnia says:

    thanks for listing my RANT …LOL

    • Calpurnia,

      I’m NOT amused by dishonest slander and lies. If you can’t support your assertions, please don’t make them here. This blog is not intended to function like Faux News.

      Good Day.

  9. I’m certainly no expert on the Black Nationalist movement, but from what I’ve read most of them were well-educated, even intellectuals. Certainly they encouraged a more Afro-centric as opposed to Euro-centric world view, but I’ve never read any that encouraged ignorance.

    I think part of the problem with many of the liberation movements we’ve had including the CRM is the lack of understanding of the psychological impact generations of Jim Crow had on black people (and white people too, for that matter). Imagine if we were ending Jim Crow today, as opposed to 50 years ago. Everyone would understand that therapists and social workers would be a intrinsic part of the transitional process. For many people their lives and their worldview changed overnight. Many people suffered from untreated PTSD (I know my mother did). How could they not considering the horrors they had encountered.

    So yes, we had people in all the movements who had “issues.” We had people whose ideas did more harm than good, but given the magnitude of the problem I’m not necessarily convinced that we could have done any better. It would have taken a level of foresight that very few are gifted with to foresee these consequences.

    I remember the video that Young Nerd refers to. At the time I was a counselor at Job Corps and my office had a glass wall that faced out into the Student Center where they had a large tv. I saw that visual from my office and even though I couldn’t hear the sound I remember being absolutely terrified. I’d never been a hip-hop fan, but I’d more or less ignored it as being typical rebellious teen music. That was the day I realized it was criminal and depraved.

    I had never thought of those videos as a type of conditioning, but of course, that’s precisely what they are. There have been numerous studies that show that blacks have extremely deviant (as in outside the norms) view of crimes like domestic violence and sexual abuse. Obviously some of this can be attributed to our history, but I do believe that some of it comes from the conditioning of images like these.

    • Nathalie says:

      Roslyn said” There have been numerous studies that show that blacks have extremely deviant (as in outside the norms) view of crimes like domestic violence and sexual abuse.”

      Can you point me to some of these studies (citations/links)? I have been covering this casual acceptance and facilitation of sexual abuse and assault against black girls and women looking at the rapes of girls and women in projects, Hurricane Katrina and Rwanda. But was unaware of research that pinpoints a difference in blacks’ views of these crimes as compared to others, although one can certainly infer it, it’s important to discuss research- that helps shut down the enablers and the deluded. Thanks.

  10. Hi Khadija!

    Thanks for setting up this forum.

    My main question is concerning employment. I know that you have cautioned BW from being involved in “helping” jobs such as teaching. What jobs do you suggest that are not “helping” but will be viable in the future. Top-tier of Medicine(Nursing [regular and specialized], Physician’s Assistant, and Physicians), engineers, etc?

    I know you currently caution against getting into law but what other non-sciency fields would you suggest?

    + a side hustle of course. 🙂

    thanks

    • Karen says:

      Khadija’s recommendations are on point. In addition as someone who has moved among different fields, whatever you choose, you must always focusing on increasing what is in your “toolkit”.

      Networking will be essential as this will open up other possibilities.

      There is a real lack of “traditional skills”, although it is not considered glamorous, learning a trade/skill can enable a very good side hustle whether it is bartending, plumbing, knitting, weaving, carpentry, etc….

      Being able to make, build, or repair things should not be underestimated as a useful skill to have.

      • Tracy says:

        Karen said:”Being able to make, build, or repair things should not be underestimated as a useful skill to have”…

        Amen to that! I have made a decent side hustle from being “Ms. Handy Woman”.. I can paint, inside and outside, woodwork, and do minor plumbing. Where I am located, we cannot keep enough welders, bricklayers, and plumbers. The wages are great (after 5 years of apprenticeship, you are making upwards of $25.00 an hour plus benefits).

        My cousins are cabinet makers and kitchen designers. I have helped lay carpet, put up drywall and wallpaper. Consider learning a trade Joyous – put that “I can do it all” to work for you! lol!

        Khadija: could you do a post on bw using her creativeness and god given talents to make her rich – like everyone else does? And maybe how to pinpoint what those talents are? BW can do more than just sing, and do hair and nails! We need photographers, writers, sculpters, etc. Creators!

        Too many times, black women tend to go for what is safe – that steady paycheck at the tedius or demanding job. We need to tap into our creative sides – the new jobs and careers demand it. Right now, money is being thrown at women to lead in the technology fields (see Faith’s recent post about this) – why bw can’t get on this bandwagon is beyond me.

        thanks!!

        • Tracy,

          You said, “Khadija: could you do a post on bw using her creativeness and god given talents to make her rich – like everyone else does? And maybe how to pinpoint what those talents are? BW can do more than just sing, and do hair and nails! We need photographers, writers, sculpters, etc. Creators!”

          Thanks for the idea. I’ll have to let that thought marinate for a while.

          Expect Success!

        • thanks for the advice Tracy and Karen!

          I’ve been thinking about that lately. I would like to learn some type of trade (for some reason my brain has been screaming “electrician” for awhile) as well as go to grad school or professional school (without going into debt preferably).

          My certification for being a pharmacy technician just expired (I couldn’t see the point in paying for continued education credits when I’ve had the certification for over 2 years and have yet to use; everyone wants a person with experience *sigh*) so I have some kind of vocational education but I know it isn’t enough.

  11. geekgrl says:

    I went through my Black Nationalist phase during high school. (I think, subconsciously, I was trying to out-black the ABC, who made high school hell.) The Black Nationalist movement was really uplifting in lots of ways. I still kinda love the books stores and documentaries.

    But the refuges in our own land thing was very real. I think that sentiment increased the anger of Black Nationalism followers who already had reasons to feel angry. Some of the Nationalist were of the ‘return to Africa’ mindset, (which is reminiscent of the American Colonization Society sending Blacks to Liberia,) but I had no real interest in Africa.

    Studies have shown that the average Af-Am is a mixture of various African cultures and some from European, Native American, or Chinese ancestry (usually 10-20%). (i.e. Oprah had a DNA test on a pbs show that showed she is 89% sub-Saharan African (Bantu, Zulu, and Kpelle) , 8% Native American, 3% East Asian.) Rather than accept the fact and say that this mixing of cultures created a distinct people in Northern America, as the people of Latin America have embraced their mestizo being, we let others (e.g. Africans) make us ashamed.

    (Full disclosure: I was born in the US, but my parents are Afro-Caribbean and Afro Latino. Like PVW stated in a previous post, I don’t identify with those cultures. When I go to Panama (my mom’s country), I am a foreigner visiting.)

  12. KM,

    You said, “Most Af-Am studies programs advocate toppling the “system” while placing African culture (and by that, Africans) ahead of Af-Am culture (which IMO, comprises everything that AAs did before 1970). At the same time, there is constant pleading for reparations. It’s a Jedi Mind Trick set up to keep AAs and AA BW running around in circles while propping up Africans.”

    I held off on responding to your comment because I had to think about it some more. We already know there’s NO reciprocity. Non-AA Blacks DON’T allow AAs to preside over their ethnic political organizations, or control anything they truly care about. We also know that non-Blacks DON’T allow AAs to have command and control over their ethnic organizations. They certainly never do like the decades of AAs who watched WM (specifically Jewish men like Kivie Kaplan who served as NAACP president from 1966-1975) sit in the role of NAACP president until the 1970s. From Wikipedia,

    The NAACP was incorporated a year later in 1911. The association’s charter delineated its mission:

    To promote equality of rights and to eradicate caste or race prejudice among the citizens of the United States; to advance the interest of colored citizens; to secure for them impartial suffrage; and to increase their opportunities for securing justice in the courts, education for the children, employment according to their ability and complete equality before law.

    The conference resulted in a more influential and diverse organization, where the leadership was predominantly white and heavily Jewish American. In fact, at its founding, the NAACP had only one African American on its executive board, Du Bois himself. It did not elect a black president until 1975, although executive directors had been African American.

    (emphasis added) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAACP

    It’s only AAs who are stupid enough to give other people command and control over their political and organizational “nuclear codes.” We know this.

    But here’s another question we need to start asking about the various rivals/enemies who “kill us softly” by joining us: Could these Africans have set up these outposts in US universities (continental African studies masquerading as African-American studies progrmas) WITHOUT pimping AAs? I think the general answer is “NO.”

    It seems to me that these African Studies programs got their stuff recognized under the cover of AA students and communities agitating for African-American studies programs.

    This is a critical question that we need to start asking about the non-AAs who come among us—what are they looking to gain from joining us that they CAN’T get—or can’t get as easily—on their own?

    For example, like I said in an earlier comment, Telemundo and Univision are NOT checking for Black Latina actresses like Zoe Saldana or Gina Torres. So, if these Black Latina women had to depend solely on finding roles among their OWN Latino peeps, they would be S-O-L. The few times, recent and past, that I’ve glanced at Spanish-language tv, I’ve noticed that they tend to have the Whitest people among them on those programs.

    And then on the political/movement tip, some of these other types of Black folks want to come among and rule over AAs, when they CAN’T command the same sorts of following among their own people. Do non-Black Latinos follow the leadership of Black Latinos? Furthermore, I’ll have to research this, but I’m wondering—did Jamaicans living in Jamaica respond to Marcus Garvey, support him, and promote him as THEIR leader the way so many AAs did? I don’t know; it’s something I’ll eventually get around to looking into.
    _______________________________________________

    Roslyn,

    You said, “I think part of the problem with many of the liberation movements we’ve had including the CRM is the lack of understanding of the psychological impact generations of Jim Crow had on black people (and white people too, for that matter). Imagine if we were ending Jim Crow today, as opposed to 50 years ago. Everyone would understand that therapists and social workers would be a intrinsic part of the transitional process. For many people their lives and their worldview changed overnight. Many people suffered from untreated PTSD (I know my mother did). How could they not considering the horrors they had encountered.

    Very true.

    You said, “So yes, we had people in all the movements who had “issues.” We had people whose ideas did more harm than good, but given the magnitude of the problem I’m not necessarily convinced that we could have done any better. It would have taken a level of foresight that very few are gifted with to foresee these consequences.”

    ITA. And considering how the AA collective continues to screw up in the midst of the freest atmosphere we’ve ever had, I’m almost certain that we couldn’t have done any better.
    ___________________________________________________

    RevoluntionaryAndJoyful,

    You’re welcome!

    You said, “My main question is concerning employment. I know that you have cautioned BW from being involved in “helping” jobs such as teaching. What jobs do you suggest that are not “helping” but will be viable in the future. Top-tier of Medicine(Nursing [regular and specialized], Physician’s Assistant, and Physicians), engineers, etc?

    I know you currently caution against getting into law but what other non-sciency fields would you suggest?”

    Hmmm, that’s a tough question. And one that I’m not used to thinking about in terms of people in your age group. All of my brainstorming has been about trying to help people in my own age group do some midlife damage control (in the midst of threatened and actual layoffs). I’ll say this: If I was in your age group, I would start with a process of elimination. And eliminate the employment sectors that have already been identified as not coming back. I would start my research with articles like this one, The 10 American Industries That May Never Recover.

    Another angle is that you’re starting off in an era that’s about the end of “careers.” It used to be that if you got a “good job,” you’d be fairly certain of being able to build a “career” around it. The jobs were stable enough to do that—you could more or less rest assured that you’d have some decent benefits and you could hang your hat until retirement. That system is falling apart, and a lot of folks have been kicked out into the cold. I think about all the AA women teachers and other school workers (like food service and janitorial) who have been abruptly subjected to mass layoffs in Chicago. All this after they put 15, 20+ years into servicing the children.

    I believe that the overall nature of employment is transitioning into the independent contractor/movie set model that the authors of The Sovereign Individual talked about. I mentioned this in some posts at the previous blog, where I said,

    The “Factory Age” of Rising Income Equality is OVER

    From a 1997 book, The Sovereign Individual, by James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg:

    “[Otto Ammon, a 19th century German economist] believed that high abilities naturally result in people rising in income and social position. . . . He also believed that the ‘true form of the so-called social pyramid is that of a somewhat flat onion or turnip.’ . . . Modern industrial societies are indeed all turnips, with a small wealthy and upper-professional class at the top, a larger middle class, and a minority poor at the bottom. Relative to the middle, both the extremes are small.

    . . . All of this is intriguing, but the immediate interest of Ammon’s work lies in the major long-term shift we are experiencing in the relations, financial and political, between the top and the middle. . . . Most people could master the skills required for operating the machines of the mid-twentieth century, but those jobs have now been replaced by smart machines which, in effect, control themselves. A whole arena of low- and middle-skill employment has already disappeared. If we are correct, this is a prelude to the disappearance of most employment and the reconfiguration of work in the spot market. ” pgs. 212-213.

    “Societies that have been indoctrinated to expect income equality and high levels of consumption for persons of low or modest skills will face demotivation and insecurity. As the economies of more countries more deeply assimilate information technology, they will see the emergence—so evident already in North America—of a more or less unemployable underclass. [Khadija interrupting the quote here: Guess who this is? You get one guess.] This is exactly what is happening. This will lead to a reaction with a nationalist, antitechnology bias, as we detail in the next chapter.

    The Factory Age may prove to have been a unique period in which semistupid machines left a highly profitable niche for unskilled people. Now that the machines can look after themselves, the Information Age is pouring its gifts onto the top 5 percent of Otto Ammon’s turnip.” pg.214 [emphasis added].

    No More “Good Jobs”

    “. . . The model business organization of the new information economy may be a movie production company. Such enterprises can be very sophisticated, with budgets of hundreds of millions of dollars. While they are large operations, they are also temporary in nature. . . While the people who work on the production are very talented, they have no expectation that finding work on the project is equivalent to having a ‘permanent job.'” The Sovereign Individual, pg. 237.

    Also, read the following blog post about how, in a connected world where “productivity is portable,” the artificial differences in salaries between workers in different countries are evaporating. http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2009/02/journal-normalizing-wagessalaries.html

    Please note the linked CNN story about how IBM offered its laid-off employees the “opportunity” of moving to India, Russia, and Nigeria and working at LOCAL salaries in order to keep their jobs.

    My God.

    Do you want to have your salary “normalized” with that of a similarly-educated worker in China? I didn’t think so. Well, that’s what’s heading your way unless you make yourself as “sovereign” as possible. This means as independent as possible from your employer. This means having multiple income streams.

    People, Get Ready.

    http://muslimbushido.blogspot.com/2009/02/for-your-own-survival-you-must-become.html

    Bottom Line: I believe that folks will ultimately have to let go of the idea of a single, stable job that supplies ALL of the income needed for one’s daily necessities. In light of this, I believe it’s critical for everyone to develop as many income-generating skills as possible.
    ______________________________________

    Geekgrl,

    You said, “Rather than accept the fact and say that this mixing of cultures created a distinct people in Northern America, as the people of Latin America have embraced their mestizo being, we let others (e.g. Africans) make us ashamed.”

    But is there a healthy, self-respecting way of doing this? How would AAs do that without becoming like Tigger Woods? What I notice about Latinos is generally that only the ones that can’t pass themselves off as “pure” European-descent/White “embrace their mestizo being.” Here’s how I’ve observed it work among Latinos:

    1-The physically undeniably Black ones claim to be mestizo or claim to have heavy amounts of Native American/Indian heritage.

    2-The ones that physcially look like “pure” Native American/Indians claim to be mestizo.

    3-The mestizo-looking ones claim to be White.

    4-The White-looking ones claim to be of “pure” European/Spaniard descent.

    In short, most of the Latinos I’ve encountered will claim the Whitest self-identification they feel they can get away with. I’ve met a handful who don’t do that, but that’s the general pattern. I worry that the bulk of AAs would choose to do the same thing, if only Whites would cooperate with that sort of self-identification as self-proclaimed non-Blacks.

    Expect Success!

    • KM says:

      @Khadija

      From personal experience, the Black Latinos only matter when they are married to WM. Then their in-roads with WM are used to benefit the whole but they are still below White Latinos.

      I just came to that realization recently as I was being bombarded by emails for the “Black College Reunion” for my university and memories of the Sankofas/Black Student Union/etc. meetings. Africans/Afro-Caribbeans/Afro-Latinos were rife in leading the BSU but no AAs were allowed to even think of leading the African Student Union, Caribbean Student Union, Latino Caucus, etc.

      AAs are powerful enough still (even though the power base is eroded every day by the BC’s embrace of the depraved) where for Africans and other Black non-AAs, it’s best to work your agenda cloaked under togetherness BS with AAs until you have what you want. Then, its time to shake off the AAs (like Latinos are doing) and go for self while leaving AAs in the dust.

      I smelled the coffee about BM and stopped being involved almost a decade ago, yet, I’m still learning things that I never thought existed as my eyes have been awakened by BWE.

    • Robynne says:

      Re: Marcus Garvey – yes, Jamaicans do recognize him as a leader. He is a national hero and there are several monuments in his honour in Jamaica. His home is also a historic site.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Garvey

      • Robynne,

        Okay, they recognize him now that his struggles are long over; and he’s “safely” dead. We love a lot of folks after they’re safely dead, and verbally supporting them is therefore no longer risky.

        [As an aside, this reminds me of something that’s always amazing to hear. WVON, the local Black-owned talk radio station, periodically plays a recording of an interview one of their hosts did with Dr. King when he came to Chicago in the 1960s. It’s incredible to hear an endless stream of AA-Negro slave callers call in to ask Dr. King hostile, fearful questions. Offhand, I recall one BM calling in to ask Dr. King if he thought it was a good idea or even safe to get Black folks “stirred up.” {shaking my head at the memory}]

        But my question is, were Jamaicans actively recognizing and supporting him back then when he was active? I don’t know–I’ll read the link you gave.

        Expect Success!

        • Robynne says:

          He was active during the anti-colonial era. He had the support of the black poor – not the mulatto or white elites of the period. When Garvey was alive, most of the black people were disenfranchised and poor. If you are referring to the elites and the colonialist identified blacks (like that Rev. in the article), oh no they did not recognize him or embrace him. He was the antithesis of what they stood for. It’s the same for Bob Marley – the classes above refused to acknowledge him and some radio stations did not play his music. They took offense to his pro-black message, and were puzzled as to why a half-white man would want to identify with his black heritage. The norm was to pretend you’re totally white. But they started to play his songs and acknowledge after he gained international acclaim though.

    • geekgrl says:

      I agree that is the general pattern for certain Hispanics, but I see them as being as color struck as some of the people I met in the south. I see this mostly with those of Mexican decent but, I don’t know if its because I’m in California which has a huge Mexican population. I don’t see this in the Central and South Americans I’ve come across here and when traveling.

      I don’t want to emulate the craziness of others, I hope to find the value in others and see if it can and should apply to us. I’m sure there is a self respecting way to do this and history shows us that some Black leaders and Nationalist were on the road to self identity or had that as a goal in the past, but the goals got side tracked/hijacked.

      • Geekgrl,

        While I’m on the topic of the mass patterns I’ve observed, I’ll say this:

        Out of all the different types of non-AA Black folks that I’ve met in real life over the years (including the non-AA BM I’ve dated and the people from their ethnic groups that I met through them), the Panamanians I’ve met have been uniformly non-racist toward AAs (with only a couple of exceptions). I’ve almost never gotten the strangely hostile, or racist vibe off of them that I often get from other non-AA Blacks. I don’t know why that is.

        Another thing I’ve noticed about the Panamanians I’ve met in real life is that they didn’t seem frantic and hysterical about being identified as “Latino” even though they speak Spanish. They seemed relaxed about it. As opposed to the “Don’t you know I’m Cuban, Dominican, Puerto Rican, and therefore NOT like you AAs, dammit!” vibe given off by some other types of Spanish-speaking Black folks. Again, I don’t know why that is.

        Hmmm…now I’m starting to feel really curious about Panama’s cultural history. I think I’ll do some reading up on them.

        Anyhoo, you said, “I don’t want to emulate the craziness of others, I hope to find the value in others and see if it can and should apply to us.”

        Indeed. This is why I’ve never been mesmerized by Arab, Pakistani, Iranian or African Muslims. I’m happy to borrow the good things from them, but I’m not interested in emulating the crazy things about their various cultures.

        You said, “I’m sure there is a self respecting way to do this and history shows us that some Black leaders and Nationalist were on the road to self identity or had that as a goal in the past, but the goals got side tracked/hijacked.”

        I agree. {sigh}

        Expect Success!

        • pioneervalleywoman says:

          Khadija:

          Another thing I’ve noticed about the Panamanians I’ve met in real life is that they didn’t seem frantic and hysterical about being identified as “Latino” even though they speak Spanish. They seemed relaxed about it. As opposed to the “Don’t you know I’m Cuban, Dominican, Puerto Rican, and therefore NOT like you AAs, dammit!” vibe given off by some other types of Spanish-speaking Black folks. Again, I don’t know why that is.

          My reply:

          Some ideas. A fair number of Panamanians when you go back a few generations, are English speaking Afro-Caribbean in descent. It is fascinating. Their grand parents (and beyond) were English-speakers who moved to Panama during the Panama canal era and so they have Anglo last names, or can recall the Anglo last names in their heritage, and as you mentioned, a number of them they are English speaking (perhaps because of that heritage).

          • PVW,

            You said, “A fair number of Panamanians when you go back a few generations, are English speaking Afro-Caribbean in descent. It is fascinating. Their grand parents (and beyond) were English-speakers who moved to Panama during the Panama canal era and so they have Anglo last names, or can recall the Anglo last names in their heritage, and as you mentioned, a number of them they are English speaking (perhaps because of that heritage).”

            Oh, so that’s how that happened—I didn’t know any of that. I had noticed that a lot of Panamanians have Anglo last names, but I didn’t know how that came to be. Yes, that history does sound fascinating. In fact, I’m off to Amazon.com right now to look for some books about all of that.

            Thanks for the info!

            Expect Success!

  13. KM,

    You said, “I just came to that realization recently as I was being bombarded by emails for the “Black College Reunion” for my university and memories of the Sankofas/Black Student Union/etc. meetings. Africans/Afro-Caribbeans/Afro-Latinos were rife in leading the BSU but no AAs were allowed to even think of leading the African Student Union, Caribbean Student Union, Latino Caucus, etc.

    AAs are powerful enough still (even though the power base is eroded every day by the BC’s embrace of the depraved) where for Africans and other Black non-AAs, it’s best to work your agenda cloaked under togetherness BS with AAs until you have what you want. Then, its time to shake off the AAs (like Latinos are doing) and go for self while leaving AAs in the dust.”

    DING! DING! DING! We have a winner! That’s exactly how this “people of color-togetherness” works in reference to AAs. Other people of color use and then discard AAs. While we continue to take drags off The Kumbaya-People of Color Together crack pipe. It’s NOT these other people’s fault that AAs are gullible fools when dealing with other people of color.

    In fact, let me stress that this isn’t even about these other people. They’re only taking advantage of all opportunities—including the opportunity to get over on the backs of AAs. I don’t blame them. This is about more AA women waking up and smelling the coffee.

    And yes, even though AAs are becoming a permanent underclass in the US, there’s still enough resources left in our hands to make other people’s dreams come true! Other people see that, and act accordingly to gain the use of our resources. I recall an old saying, “Find a fool, bump their head.”

    Expect Success!

  14. pioneervalleywoman says:

    Some thoughts on the black nationalists “rejecting education as white.”

    I agree that black nationalists didn’t reject education as “white,” although some might have argued that certain approaches to education were grounded in white supremacy, ie., public schools, and integrated schools.

    But it is important to note that the “acting black crew” under a false notion of black nationalism, ie., their bastardized version, described all sorts of uplifting cultural and social practices among African Americans as “acting white,” and that these were to be rejected as a matter of black pride and black unity. If they didn’t say these were “white,” then the substandard practices were accepted as being legitimately “black.”

    This was only possible because there were black nationalists whose assault against integration ignored that African American people are American and that they are entitled to the benefits (and strengths) of American society and culture. They wanted to support everything they could possibly see as African and make connections between black culture in the US and Africa. In creating an oppositional stance (in academia in particular), it provided support for the acting black crew’s mess.

    Matriarchal families and out of wedlock pregnancies, ie., the Moynihan report? Argue that some traditional African societies are matriarchal. Argue that like in African societies, a “village can raise a child”. Argue that what is a detriment is really a strength.

    • PioneerValleyWoman,

      Respectfully, I want to be extremely careful about what you’re saying. YOU can speak about the nuances to this issue. YOU have actually read works by Black Nationalist thinkers (Haki Madhubuti, etc.).

      But be aware that the “I hate everything I’ve (often falsely) identified as ‘Black’/I hate the very idea of AAs having any racial self-respect” contingent among the readership will work overtime to twist everything you’re saying.

      You said, “I agree that black nationalists didn’t reject education as “white,” although some might have argued that certain approaches to education were grounded in white supremacy, ie., public schools, and integrated schools.”

      Well, actually the way US and world history were/are typically taught WAS/IS grounded in White supremacy. In the typical textbook, AAs were reduced to only a paragraph describing us as slaves. No mention of the horrors involved in the trans-Atlantic slave trade. This is in stark contrast to how the Jewish Holocaust has been taught—how many generations of AA children were forced to read The Diary of Anne Frank and NOT given any primary materials (such as diaries or letters) to read about their OWN ethnic history? And no mention of our contributions.

      The Black Nationalists’ critique of so-called mainstream educational approaches WAS absolutely correct. Let’s not forget that.

      You said, “But it is important to note that the “acting black crew” under a false notion of black nationalism, ie., their bastardized version, described all sorts of uplifting cultural and social practices among African Americans as “acting white,” and that these were to be rejected as a matter of black pride and black unity. If they didn’t say these were “white,” then the substandard practices were accepted as being legitimately “black.”

      The key phrase here is the Acting Black Crew’s FALSE notion of what constitutes Black pride and Black unity. I think it’s totally inaccurate to link what the Acting Black Crew is saying to “Black Nationalism,” because the Acting Black Crew does not read. Does anybody actually believe that the Acting Black Crew has read ANY book(s) other than things like Confessions of a Video Vixen? The Acting Black Crew has never heard of Black Nationalists like Haki Madhubuti. They certainly aren’t saying anything that’s grounded in actual Black Nationalist thought. How could they when they’ve never heard or read such thought?

      You said, “This was only possible because there were black nationalists whose assault against integration ignored that African American people are American and that they are entitled to the benefits (and strengths) of American society and culture. They wanted to support everything they could possibly see as African and make connections between black culture in the US and Africa. In creating an oppositional stance (in academia in particular), it provided support for the acting black crew’s mess.

      Matriarchal families and out of wedlock pregnancies, ie., the Moynihan report? Argue that some traditional African societies are matriarchal. Argue that like in African societies, a “village can raise a child”. Argue that what is a detriment is really a strength.”

      Okay, now THIS is a different and nuanced statement which is distinct from distortions and lies that the “I hate everything I’ve (often falsely) identified as ‘Black’/I hate the very idea of AAs having any racial self-respect” contingent among the readership choose to believe.

      I will agree that yes, AA academics—of various ideological camps, including some Black Nationalist academics—have repeatedly and foolishly tried to justify emerging AA cultural breakdowns and pathologies. Mostly by trying to re-define various types of mess as African or African-inspired. All of which is slandering Africans. Various African cultural practices operated in the overall context of legitimate marriage and paternal responsibility for financially supporting the family unit.

      There’s NO comparison or connection between various (functional and dysfunctional—such as polygamy) African practices and modern AA practices such as bastard children, shacking up, and shiftless males rotating from living in their mothers’ homes to shacking with various baby mamas to sleeping on their grandmothers’ and aunts’ couches. There’s now an entire cadre of physically adult AA males who have never had their own names on a lease or mortgage because they mooch off of a series of women. There’s nothing African about that sort of behavior.

      I also understand the human motivations that led to so many AA academics doing this. They did it to try to save face. It’s humiliating to listen to insulting tongue lashings from outsiders. Nobody likes that. And nobody else permits AAs to tongue-lash them!

      When, if ever, have non-AAs meekly taken a tongue-lashing off of AA? For example, have any of our supposed political allies EVER taken a tongue-lashing off of any AA academic or politician? No, this have never happened as far as I can tell. When it comes to outsiders, AAs are always the recipients and never the dispensers of tongue-lashings.

      AAs are somehow expected to be silent while we’re being verbally “whooped” by non-AAs and non-Blacks. As silent and accepting as slaves.

      However, instead of trying to redefine dysfunction as strength, the better response would have been to tell off Moynihan while working internally to correct those destructive trends before they became entrenched.

      Expect Success!

      • ak says:

        Khadija:

        Does anybody actually believe that the Acting Black Crew has read ANY book(s) other than things like Confessions of a Video Vixen?

        True. I agree. Which reminds me….

        Geekgrl:

        I went through my Black Nationalist phase during high school. (I think, subconsciously, I was trying to out-black the ABC, who made high school hell.) The Black Nationalist movement was really uplifting in lots of ways. I still kinda love the books stores and documentaries.

        This was me to a tee in school also which was the absolute bane in my life and it’s something I need therapy for right now. A lot of these books and documentaries come from intelligensia types of people who turn out to be professors most of the time. Eyes On The Prize was a great documentary series and The Color Complex was a very good and informative book I found in the high school library in the US in the 90s (That school’s library DID have some pretty good books. Don’t know how they got so lucky!). When I look around me now and when I look back in the past, a lot of good books, films, and other types of media were wasted on the ABCs, whether they were AAs or non-AAs at this rate.

        I mean The Color Complex was just sitting there for some black person to read so that they could understand the root of any colorist/hair grade issues and beauty standards in world history but to this day, black people want to gripe, complain, stay out of the sun, and bleach in some cases. Whatever.

        The only black Nationalists I can’t appreciate at all are the Black Panthers as they stood by Eldridge Cleaver a man who wrote about his ‘guilt-free’ rapist life in Soul On Ice, and practiced raping the black women to prepare him for raping the white women and such. Cleaver only apologized to white women for what he did later in life, and never the black women.

        The Black Panthers picked THAT man to identify with.

        • AK,

          You said, “The only black Nationalists I can’t appreciate at all are the Black Panthers as they stood by Eldridge Cleaver a man who wrote about his ‘guilt-free’ rapist life in Soul On Ice, and practiced raping the black women to prepare him for raping the white women and such. Cleaver only apologized to white women for what he did later in life, and never the black women.

          The Black Panthers picked THAT man to identify with.”

          Indeed. The choices the Panthers made regarding the treatment of BW in general, and in reference to Eldridge Cleaver in particular, were downright Satanic.

          Expect Success!

  15. pioneervalleywoman says:

    Greetings, Khadija!

    No argument here, and I agree, that black nationalist types were correct in arguing that certain types of education were supporting white supremacy. I don’t disagree, and I note as well the cautionary aspect that there are those who don’t have the nuances I have who will twist things. Thanks for mentioning that.

    You mentioned:

    However, instead of trying to redefine dysfunction as strength, the better response would have been to tell off Moynihan while working internally to correct those destructive trends before they became entrenched.

    My reply:

    I agree.

    A note regarding “getting ready.” You are talking about the future, well it is already here.

    Our graduate school is dealing with accreditation assessments this academic year. The last time, they were slammed over lack of “diversity.” So there was a faculty meeting yesterday afternoon to talk about this and other matters.

    What does diversity look like? Way back in the day, when I was in school, the students of color were primarily Af-Am, then Latino then Asian. At the school where I teach today, the students are primarily Asian (this includes East Asians and South Asians) then Latino, then Af-Am, and Af-Am includes all those who are of African descent.

    Where are the Af-Am students? Are they not applying? It is unclear whether the numbers are not there or whether they are not bringing the undergraduate records for admission.

    So the talk now is of creating a “pipeline” of Af-Am students who might apply way in the future–they are talking high school age kids or those who are barely in college! This means going to local schools and so forth to get the students thinking about graduate school years down the line.

  16. Everybody,

    I’ll get back to the conversation later, but I want folks to consider the following as we’re talking about the (many) flaws of Black Nationalism:

    Has there been any group among AAs other than Black Nationalists that EVER actively supported the ideas of AAs having ethnic and racial self-respect and pride? I think not. Remember that before you scornfully discard everything these people said.

    Did your messiah Dr. King and the other integrationists ever say anything that directly addressed AAs’ mass racial self-hatred? No.

    Did your previous part-White messiah, W.E.B. DuBois, ever say anything that directly addressed AAs’ mass racial self-hatred? No, I think not—certainly not while he was still in integrationist mode. I don’t know what he said after he became disillusioned and went to Africa.

    But during his integrationist era, he was busy bragging about his multiracial heritage. DuBois was an early version of Tigger Woods. The difference is that Whites from that era wouldn’t entertain that “I’m not really Black like those other Negroes” noise. So, DuBois was stuck with trying to organize around AA issues.

    Did your previous (half-White) messiah, Booker T. Washington ever say anything that directly addressed AAs’ mass racial self-hatred? No. He told that generation of AAs not to resist having segregation violently imposed on them.

    Does your current (half-White) messiah, Pres. Obama, say anything that directly addresses AAs’ mass racial self-hatred? NO. Even if he wanted to, how could he? He’s not part of us, was not raised anywhere around or among us, and therefore does not understand us from the inside.

    Many of you correctly complain about AA males’ racist, Black-hating, colorism against BW. Well, why do you think it is that this racial self-hatred STILL exists among the masses of AAs? Because it was never properly addressed. None of your integrationist messiahs or sacred cows ever opened their mouths to combat this. In fact, many of them were early versions of Tigger Woods and Russell Simmons.

    I will also note that some of y’all in the reading audience hold the SAME fundamentally anti-Black racist attitudes as these Black-hating, colorist BM that you complain about. I’m NOT with that. I understand that many of those who fit into this description are still angry about past teasing from the Acting Black Crew. When are you going to get past that? And for how long will you continue to allow that particular trauma to taint your views about AA ethnic and racial self-respect?

    To those whom the shoe fits:

    I’m trying to foster a healthy critique of the flaws in previous Black Nationalist thought. Please don’t try to twist this around to support your rejection of ethnic and racial self-respect.

    **Addendum To Those Whom The Shoe Fits**

    Let me say some things out loud that normally go unspoken in polite company.

    (1) People (myself included, in particular during the V For Vendetta post) speak of letting go of historical grudges against Whites. Well, if y’all can let go of slavery, lynching, and Jim Crow-based grudges against Whites, why won’t you let go of your grudge against the Acting Black Crew?

    (2) Let’s say you can’t/won’t let go of your eternal grudge against the Acting Black Crew. How much literal death and suffering among them will it take to quench your hatred of them? It’s quite clear that the the males among the Acting Black Crew are on their way to early deaths. That is, the ones who aren’t already dead by drive-by shooting, dead by armed robbery, dead by AIDs from being victimized by so-called “Booty Warriors” in prison, and so on. It’s also clear that the BW among the Acting Black Crew have lives filled with great suffering.

    The emotional pain that comes with eternal baby mama-hood, eternal jump-off status, eternal side-piece status. The physical pain that comes from being beaten by their baby daddies, attacked by other BM while walking down the street, and so on. Many of the ABC women are also suffering from HIV and AIDs.

    What else would you like to see happen to the ABCs?

    The Acting Black Crew are literally perishing before your eyes, and on the evening news. Their ongoing early deaths are being recorded in academic journals and social science studies. Isn’t it enough for you that they are literally dying? Isn’t it enough for you that the women among the ABC are already suffering? What has to happen—that’s not already happening—to the ABC for you to be satisfied that they’ve been properly punished?

    The ABCs are already dead and dying. Why do you still carry their corpses and ghosts around with you? Even more troubling, why do you let these wraiths impact your current thinking?

    It’s something to consider.

    Expect Success!

    • ak says:

      Actually, this was all a very good, concise, and clear point that you’ve made above. Thanks!

      • You’re welcome!

        It’s interesting. I was ALSO teased by the ABCs during grammar school for “talking White” (i.e., speaking standard, grammatically correct English). And I had some run-ins with the ABCs during high school and college due to my various non-conformist hobbies and interests.

        I was deeply angry about those fools and their harassment at the time. But I got past them—they couldn’t and didn’t slow my roll. I haven’t thought about those nuts in decades. They were on the loser track then, and I have no idea what became of the bulk of them now. Nor do I care.

        Now that I’m thinking about this topic, this reminds me of something. Every once in a while (like every 5-6 years or so) I run across an ABC nut (who is a soror) who hated me with a passion while we were pledging, and afterwards. She’s also an attorney.

        It tickles me that this ABC fool STILL cares enough to tighten her jaw and give me the high-school “belligerent stare you up-and-down” glare whenever she sees me. I smile and chuckle in her face and keep stepping. I have to admit that it gives me some amount of pleasure to know that this hateful clown is STILL uptight about not being able to slow my roll DECADES ago.

        Ladies, DON’T imitate this clown’s behavior—not even in spirit. Let the ABC wraiths go…so they can continue on to their graves without you clinging to them.

        Expect Success!

    • ZooPath says:

      So true, to hate something that much is giving it your energy.

    • tertiaryanna says:

      why won’t you let go of your grudge against the Acting Black Crew?”

      This made me reflect. I wonder if the effects of the ABC should be put in the same category as growing up fatherless: influences that BW should recognize as mindtraps holding them back from a better future.

      I’ve been venomously angry at the ABC, especially when I was first understanding about how many of these messages I’d internalized. I think that if I’d been stronger in my own person, I would have been less affected by their actions. That realization took some time, but makes it easier to move on from the past.

      I can see how easy it would be for someone to try to repair their own ego by condemning everything Black, instead of by cultivating a sense of self-worth by living by one’s own goals and values. Or by using the anger to take action against toxic messages to protect new people against the bad things (like WAOD).

      It takes effort and time for people to develop and maintain a healthy sense of self-respect. I think this was talked about before, by saying how BW should take some time to self-reflect, and determine what’s valuable to them. I think taking that time will help someone if they need to stay angry at people they feel have harmed them. Sometimes that answer might be “yes”, but it should be because of a reason, not force of habit.

      I also think the anger at the ABC (the causes and the maintainers) is well-founded, and it does take time to get over, especially if a person didn’t realize what they were up against until later. It’s like recognizing the Agent Smiths of the Matrix, and wanting to fight every one you see.

      But the legitimate reasons to be angry can overflow into a general resentment, and being actively angry takes away the mental reserve needed to assume responsibility for one’s own actions and further one’s own agenda.

      • TA,

        You said, “I wonder if the effects of the ABC should be put in the same category as growing up fatherless: influences that BW should recognize as mindtraps holding them back from a better future.”

        I think so.

        You said, “I’ve been venomously angry at the ABC, especially when I was first understanding about how many of these messages I’d internalized. I think that if I’d been stronger in my own person, I would have been less affected by their actions. That realization took some time, but makes it easier to move on from the past. (emphasis added)

        I was waiting for a reader to make the observation that I highlighted from this part of your comment. I didn’t want to be the first one to say that. There comes a point as an adult when you step back from your childhood and adolescent experiences, and see them in a slightly different light. Every childhood and adolescence has painful moments and experiences. There’s always something in every young person’s life that’s causing them some sort of discomfort or pain. There’s. Always. Something. No Exceptions To This Rule.

        And as I stressed in the V For Vendetta post, I’m not a cheek-turning Christian who constantly counsels forgiveness. I generally don’t forgive mean-spirited trespasses. I generally only forgive things people do by genuine mistake. So, I’m not saying any of this from the “you should forgive them” tip. I’m saying this from the “Why are so many of you still stuck at this point?” angle.

        You said, “I can see how easy it would be for someone to try to repair their own ego by condemning everything Black, instead of by cultivating a sense of self-worth by living by one’s own goals and values. Or by using the anger to take action against toxic messages to protect new people against the bad things (like WAOD).”

        Indeed. The trickbag is that folks are digging the Lack of Self-Respect Hole even deeper when they condemn a central feature of themselves—by condemning everything they identify as Black.

        You said, “It takes effort and time for people to develop and maintain a healthy sense of self-respect. I think this was talked about before, by saying how BW should take some time to self-reflect, and determine what’s valuable to them. I think taking that time will help someone if they need to stay angry at people they feel have harmed them. Sometimes that answer might be “yes”, but it should be because of a reason, not force of habit.”

        I agree.

        You said, “I also think the anger at the ABC (the causes and the maintainers) is well-founded, and it does take time to get over, especially if a person didn’t realize what they were up against until later. It’s like recognizing the Agent Smiths of the Matrix, and wanting to fight every one you see.”

        I agree. What concerns me is:

        (1) Folks don’t seem to be getting past this. Or even working toward getting past this.

        (2) Here’s my spooky-minded angle 🙂 : I worry about the corruption of these folks’ souls. The ABCs are already suffering some of the most dreadful consequences imaginable as a result of their twisted belief system. What more suffering do people want to see heaped onto the ABCs? Ladies, if you’re not satisfied with how the ABCs are already dead and dying, that says something really ugly about your character…

        From my perspective, justice is already being served upon the ABCs. Best of all, they are suffering by the fruit of their own handiwork. They are imposing their own punishments on themselves; which is perfect justice.

        You said, “But the legitimate reasons to be angry can overflow into a general resentment, and being actively angry takes away the mental reserve needed to assume responsibility for one’s own actions and further one’s own agenda.”

        I agree.

        Expect Success!

    • tertiaryanna says:

      “The ABCs are already dead and dying. Why do you still carry their corpses and ghosts around with you? Even more troubling, why do you let these wraiths impact your current thinking?”

      This reminds me of the quote you’d given earlier “let the dead bury the dead”.

      I think this is one of the markers on the way into a healthier existence: recognizing the dead from the living, and learning to leave the dead behind in their graves.

    • DeStouet says:

      I don’t think it’s a matter of certain folks are still holding on to their grudges, as much as it is they’re just elated to finally be in a place where they’re better than someone else.

      Since I’ve had my paradigm shift regarding much of what we’ve discussed here at this blog, and back at the old one, I’ve only came across two women here in Arizona who exhibit any signs of ethnic and racial self-respect. One woman is a professor here at a local University, and another woman is living here, but from Canada.

      At the core, it does not seem like many of the “I’m not really Black like those other Negroes” black folks have healthy self esteems. So they hold onto their grudges because the grudge/anger/pain is the only thing that allows them to feel superior to others.

      • ak says:

        I remember that there were some the “I’m not really Black like those other Negroes” black men around towns where Smith College and other colleges are in Massachusetts.

  17. Nysee says:

    Dear Khadija,
    I like the response you gave when you were refering to the helping porfessions. I went to Walgreens the other day and guess what SELF SERVE REGISTERS. Black women have to have aleast 2-3 streams of income to have an abundant life.
    No, I did not say jobs , but income that your are producing with out doing some thing directly.
    Also, people are startign to wake up and Black Women first and foremost LET NO ONE EVEN FAMILY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOU. YOU ARE FIRST AND FOREMOST IN THAT ORDER.
    Keep up the good work.

  18. Tasha212 says:

    When I was swept up in the fervor of Black Nationalism as a young adolescent, I was fascinated by historical African genius. I felt that if only African Americans knew that before we were slaves, we built civilizations and came up with the laws of math, science, and religion, we could possibly be inspired to get rid of the inferiority complex that continued to hold us back. It wasn’t about hating whites or America, or even about uplifting Africa. For me being a black Nationalist was about loving myself as a young black girl in a world that made it hard to do so.

    As an adult, I see Black Nationalism with open eyes. I still have some Black Nationalist tendencies but I see it for what it is. But does disturb me that some take pleasure in duping on anything Black, even going so far as to lie. Anyhoo, I think I was made better for it.

    As far as the biracial thing is concerned, I live in Washington County, MD, where there are a whole lot of mixed couples, and therefore a lot of mixed kids. Some of the mothers here, most of them white, go so far as to tell the child that he/she is white, especially if the black father is not in the picture. I guess it’s easy to do here because there are not many black people here at all. I go days sometimes, especially at work, without seeing another black face.

    Anyway, I’m rambling. Just my thoughts…

    Tasha

  19. Truth P. says:

    Hey Khadija and audience,*waving and smiling*

    Since this is an open forum ?I have a question and would like some advice.I want to know how would you all handle a situation where a known anti black black racist is asking for support because their child has been victimized or attacked in some way because of their race?

    I’ll list a real situation i’ve been in personally.

    1:Black man in my family is a racio-misogynist against black women.He had a child by a white woman,who left the child with him,when he was young and now the child has been taken care of by his mother,my aunt, for years.The biracial child ends up being a victim of verbalized racism from some white parents and fought a white child and now the family,meaning mostly black women,is called upon by my aunt to come to a church gathering to rally in support of the child and get justice for the child.What would you all do in this situation?

    Note*This child has been in other situations where they were victimized by white classmates because of race because of this I have been personally called on the phone (by aunt) to tell about the situation and asked to pray about it which I have.I have been feeling bad because I do sympathize very much and feel sorry for the child but I feel guilt because I don’t know if I feel as bad for this child as I would had I not known her father and the way he is.I guess it’s like I feel bad but I could feel worse.Keep in mind that the child lives in a very white area and goes to predominantly white schools.

  20. Kandika/Calpurnia,

    What’s with this shifting to using another screen name mid-way through the conversation? You’ve done this before (during at least one earlier conversation) in order to keep talking without accepting any accountability for your statements. That’s dishonest behavior. If you do this again, I’ll ban you from this forum.

    You said, “What makes you think that youre not exotic (regarding monoracial phenotype) a lot of black women i see of darker hues are getting along today–we actually do better away from colostruck people, (mostly black, or white women with VISIBLY black children) anyway”

    I’ve been using the terms “exotic” and “non-exotic” as shorthand to describe a constellation of perceived traits that are too lengthy to list each and every time I discuss the various ideas that are underlying the concept of what is often perceived as “exotic.” Most readers seem to understand what I mean when I use these terms as shorthand. I’ve also been routinely putting these terms in quotation marks, which is another indication that I don’t actually buy into those concepts.

    This is the same way I’ve been mostly putting the term “biracial” in quotation marks because I don’t buy into the ideas underlying that term. Again, most readers seem to get this. Sometimes, I get tired of typing all these quotation marks. So, I don’t. Yet again, most readers seem to understand that as well…
    ____________________________________________

    Robynne,

    You said, “I understand this and I’ve seen this derailing tactic before – especially from the intellectually dishonest bp that you mentioned. On the other hand, It just struck me as odd that someone would run with such rhetoric without fully thinking through the ramifications and how it would affect her. Sometimes I feel that ill suited people should not be allowed to reproduce as well, but on the other hand I understand just what a slippery slope that is.”

    I also thought it was an odd statement. That commenter didn’t seem to understand that she’s also descended from the racially BM that she described as inherently defective in general. {shaking my head}

    In terms of the legions of AA crackheads, lifetime welfare recipients, and prisoners who are having more babies per person than productive AAs: Well, that’s their right to freely reproduce. I just don’t appreciate being forced to subsidize their irresponsible sex lives with my tax dollars. I also don’t appreciate being guilt tripped into trying to clean up the various catastrophes created by their irresponsible sex lives. I want these individuals’ public aid to be cut off. I also don’t want to support programs designed to act as surrogate parents for their offspring. It’s their responsibility to parent and take care of their own children.
    ___________________________________________

    PioneerValleyWoman,

    You said, “What does diversity look like? Way back in the day, when I was in school, the students of color were primarily Af-Am, then Latino then Asian. At the school where I teach today, the students are primarily Asian (this includes East Asians and South Asians) then Latino, then Af-Am, and Af-Am includes all those who are of African descent.”

    Well, as I predicted during posts at the previous blog, ultimately 95%+ of the racially Black students at US colleges with be of non-AA origin. That’s where that particular trend line is headed.
    _____________________________________________________

    Nysee,

    You said, “I like the response you gave when you were refering to the helping porfessions. I went to Walgreens the other day and guess what SELF SERVE REGISTERS. Black women have to have aleast 2-3 streams of income to have an abundant life.”

    A coworker recently mentioned that she had a similar experience. She went into a Walgreens early one morning to discover that there was only one human being at work in the store at that time! I guess soon it’ll be all self-service registers (which I generally refuse to use—I want to be served by humans—yes, I know it’s a pointless gesture but I do it). Hmmph!

    I totally agree with your other observations about having multiple income streams and BW putting themselves first and foremost.
    ___________________________________________________

    Tasha212,

    You said, “When I was swept up in the fervor of Black Nationalism as a young adolescent, I was fascinated by historical African genius. I felt that if only African Americans knew that before we were slaves, we built civilizations and came up with the laws of math, science, and religion, we could possibly be inspired to get rid of the inferiority complex that continued to hold us back. It wasn’t about hating whites or America, or even about uplifting Africa. For me being a black Nationalist was about loving myself as a young black girl in a world that made it hard to do so.”

    I felt the same way. I was attracted to Black Nationalist thought and the NOI because it was about loving myself, my own heritage and my own people. For me, none of this was about other people. It was about loving self and those most like self.

    You said, “As far as the biracial thing is concerned, I live in Washington County, MD, where there are a whole lot of mixed couples, and therefore a lot of mixed kids. Some of the mothers here, most of them white, go so far as to tell the child that he/she is white, especially if the black father is not in the picture.”

    {sarcasm on} Oh, that’s special. {sarcasm off} My only point of (mild) interest in that is because those are some children that will most likely grow up to mistreat Black people just to “prove” that they’re not in any way Black. Which is the pattern with these self-proclaimed non-Blacks who are half-Black.

    Expect Success!

  21. Aisha,

    You said, “I read those disturbing comments on that blog as well, and it’s not the first time.

    My fear is that these wounded, racist Black women will damage the overall credibility of BWE. I certainly don’t want to be associated with them. How do we remove them from our ranks before they turn off self-respecting Black women?”

    We prevent these BF-Russell Simmons from damaging the BWE movement by quickly checking them when they talk that racist, anti-Black mess. Which is why I was pleased that the blog host involved in that incident did some swift corrective action with that particular commenter (as I knew she would). When we let the BF Tigger Woods’/Russell Simmons’ racist, anti-Black statement go unchallenged, we give the false impression that what they’re saying is representative of BWE.
    ______________________________________

    TruthP.,

    Here’s my 2 cents about the situation you described. You said, “He had a child by a white woman,who left the child with him,when he was young and now the child has been taken care of by his mother,my aunt, for years.”

    That’s the first problem with this picture. Why isn’t this Negro taking care of his own child?

    You said, “Keep in mind that the child lives in a very white area and goes to predominantly white schools.”

    That’s the second problem with this picture. Who exactly is it that has this girl living in a RACIST “very white area” and attending RACIST “predominantly white schools”? Who is it that’s making the decision to put this child in those hostile environments?

    If it was me, I’d probably cooperate with rescuing the child once. And then tell whoever it is that’s putting her in those environments that they need to find a less racist and more welcoming environment for that child. I hate to see any child suffer needlessly. However, I’m usually only willing to do ONE SWAT team rescue mission extracting a person from ONE lion’s den. If that same person keeps going into new lions’ dens, then I’m not going to do repeat rescue missions.

    Unfortunately, this child has no say-so in where she’s being dumped. However, I would warn whoever guardian it is that’s putting her in these racist environments that I’m not going to do repeated rescues. Because it’s that guardian’s irresponsible decision to put the child in viciously racist environments that’s causing these problems in the first place.

    Expect Success!

  22. Truth P. says:

    Khadija said:Why isn’t this Negro taking care of his own child?
    Because he has married another ww and she won’t have it.

    Khadija said:Who exactly is it that has this girl living in a RACIST “very white area” and attending RACIST “predominantly white schools”? Who is it that’s making the decision to put this child in those hostile environments?
    Both her granny and father.The child has had issues at more than one school which sometimes has led me to believe that there were other problems with the child because some of the time it was alleged that teachers were racist (they could be racist but the child has had alot of issues so i’ono).I should mention that my aunt became hundred thousand-millionaires through working for a big company and renting and selling apts.and houses.So that’s why they live in a big home around white folks.I never thought to tell them to move because they don’t live in Atlanta where they could be in a community of really wealthy black folks (shooulder shrug) and I believe they “show” too much of their money.

    What I think the problem is with my aunt and her son is the quality of education they feel the child would get if she went elsewhere.This is my great aunt,she was born many moons ago and has lived through alot,and i’m thinking that she’s looking at it like the little girl can go through like Ruby Bridges or something perhaps because my aunt is from the south and went through some stuff too.The girl has been moved from one school to the next on at least two occasions but everytime it was all white schools.I sometimes think that my aunt and her son equate all white school as being better.It is important for me to mention that my aunt,unlike her son,ain’t color struck or anti black.

    • TruthP.,

      You said, “Khadija said:Why isn’t this Negro taking care of his own child?
      Because he has married another ww and she won’t have it.”

      Oh, my God. I could see this if the child was living with her mother, but…oh,…wow…

      Well, based on the further details you gave, it sounds like it’s a combination of the child being troubled AND the bad effects of the child being troubled while in the midst of a racist environment. Again, the aunt and father need to find a less hostile environment for the child.

      You said, “What I think the problem is with my aunt and her son is the quality of education they feel the child would get if she went elsewhere.This is my great aunt,she was born many moons ago and has lived through alot,and i’m thinking that she’s looking at it like the little girl can go through like Ruby Bridges or something perhaps because my aunt is from the south and went through some stuff too.The girl has been moved from one school to the next on at least two occasions but everytime it was all white schools.I sometimes think that my aunt and her son equate all white school as being better.”

      I’m not sure I would try to directly approach the aunt about this if it was me. However, I would tell mutual relatives (that the aunt listens to) the following:

      1-Modern AA children are NOT as mentally resilient as your great-aunt’s generation of AA children. And not even all of your great-aunt’s generation of AA children survived the experience of being trailblazers with desegregation. We never talk about the AA children who were destroyed by the additional, unnatural stresses of integration. Children like two of my cousins. We never talk about the many AA child casualties caused by integration.

      2-Even if these White schools are objectively “better” in overall academics, they are proving themselves to NOT be “better” for this one particular child.

      3-With children who are in the process of going down the drain, there’s an ever-closing window of opportunity to get them back on a healthy track. It’s gets progressively harder as they get older and become more entrenched in their maladaptive behaviors. Your relatives don’t have a lot of time.

      **Addendum**
      So, this girl has been abandoned by both her mother and her father. She sees that her father has married another WW. If he has children with this second WW, she sees that his other half-White children are living with him. As opposed to being cast-off to live with an older relative. I would guess that this girl’s White mother has also moved on to form a new (presumably all-White) family with White children in her home.

      No wonder this girl is troubled.

      The other angle is that the only hostility that the “don’t you dare call me Black”, self-proclaimed biracials complain about is from Black folks. You don’t hear these “biracials” telling these sorts of tales about their negative experiences with racist Whites. Somehow, these self-proclaimed biracials manage to forgive AND forget about the hostility they get from Whites. It’s amazing how selective these self-proclaimed “biracials” are in their outrage.

      Expect Success!

      • ak says:

        They only forgive and forget because they want whiter children of their own when they become ready to have them.

  23. YMB says:

    Hi Khadija,

    Thanks for the open forum.

    I have recently seen some confused self-hating AA folks whining on the web about “multi-generationally mixed” people:
    Multi generational mix (mgm) are people who are mixed race in phenotype (physical appearance)but are not bi racial. they are mixed because their family tree ancestry had people from more than one race. An example of multi generational mix are light skin blacks (light skin blacks are multi generational mulattoes).

    SMH at these folks’ pathetic attempts to be considered any and everything other than black. These people are somehow dazed about their “exotic” status not being accepted by the biracials. This is from a biracial website:
    I realize that most all Blacks in America have some mixed ancestry. But there is clearly a difference between someone who has parents of two different races and someone whose great great grandmother was White but everyone else in their family is Black…

    …for the purposes of this site I usually only add someone if they have parents of two different races (in other words first generation mixed, I have made a few exceptions though). The only reason for this rule is that I simply don’t have time to research and add everyone who ever had some race mixing in their past. Again, this does not mean that there are not people who are multigenerational mixed but in order to narrow the focus of this site (due to limited time and resources) many of them are not included. Unfortunately I have to clarify this because to some it is not understood.

    Khadija wrote:
    It’s amazing how selective these self-proclaimed “biracials” are in their outrage.

    Exactly. And so much outrage is expressed at AAs for claiming biracial people as black but little to none about White people rejecting biracial people as white. I don’t know how many times I have heard, “Black people need to recognize Pres. Obama is half white”. Tell that to the racist whites who circulated photoshopped images of watermelon growing on the White House lawn immediately after he was elected. It makes me wonder if the biracials think that if they are able to convince non-exotic AAs that they are White or “White-enough” that they will be able to succeed in convincing Whites.

    • Truth P. says:

      YMB said:I have recently seen some confused self-hating AA folks whining on the web about “multi-generationally mixed” people:
      Multi generational mix (mgm) are people who are mixed race in phenotype (physical appearance)but are not bi racial. they are mixed because their family tree ancestry had people from more than one race. An example of multi generational mix are light skin blacks (light skin blacks are multi generational mulattoes).

      Me:I’m sorry but that is some really screwed up stuff.*Deep sigh*,My sister is high yellow.My mom is light- medium brown.My father is black skin and I am about my moms color slightly darker.So according to those folks my sister would be a “multi generational mulattoe” and I wouldn’t be?LMAO that doesn’t even make sense smdh.One of my cousins is dark black her brother who has the same parents as her is high yellow and they have another brother,same parents,and he is cinnamon brown.

      I’m just saying it’s one thing to be a self hater a whole nother thing to be illogical

    • ak says:

      But….most black people from outside of Africa, with the exception of the lot of Black and so-called Colored South Africans, already are this ‘mgm’….(?)

  24. YMB says:

    I think learning a skilled trade, as Tracy pointed out already, can be very valuable. There is a website that I have used to find movers, hireahelper.com, that allows people who are cleaners, handymen, gardeners, etc to market their services. Payments are handled by the website so the workers do not have to bother with getting set up to process credit cards. I think this could be a good way for someone to grow their business while being able to avoid some of the usual set up costs.

    Also, I know science and technology is not for everyone, but I still suggest investigating careers in those areas to see if there is one that would be a good match. Just as not everyone in health care is a physician, not everyone in the technology sector is a rocket scientist. Skills in these areas will make it easier to immigrate to another country. I have a Polish friend who works in a lab at the CDC. Most of her coworkers are from Eastern Europe, Asia, and India, not surprisingly.

    She theorizes that the scientific fields are dominated by people from these countries not because this is what they naturally excel at but because they are willing to dedicate themselves to rigorous study of “non-fun” subjects because those are where the opportunities are. Pursuing what they naturally enjoy is considered a luxury they don’t have.

    There are numerous programs aimed at recruiting young people and specifically underrepresented minorities into the STEM fields (Science, Technology, Education, and Mathematics). Many Universities have AGEP programs (Alliances for Graduate Education and the Professoriate).”The Alliance for Graduate Education and the Professoriate (AGEP) seeks to join together universities and colleges in the common mission of increasing the number of underrepresented minority students earning PhDs and positioning minority students to become leaders in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) fields.”

    Another program I know about is the Oak Ridge Institute for Science Education which is a Department of Energy institute that offers internships, scholarships, and fellowships to high school, undergrad, and grad students.

    Khadija,

    Since this is an open forum, I have a few suggestions about this website. I understand that you had the site professionally designed and that it might not so easily tweaked, but I’m just throwing this out there. It would make it easier for newer readers (and existing ones) to find previous posts covering specific topics if more tags were used and if a list of posts by date were listed somewhere in the sidebar and it is not so easy to navigate to older content using the previous. For example newer users might not understand what they should expect to find under posts tagged with “pop culture detox”. Also your posts would come up in more search results if a more expansive group of tags were used.

    • DeStouet says:

      YMB,

      Thank you for sharing those websites.

      You said, “She theorizes that the scientific fields are dominated by people from these countries not because this is what they naturally excel at but because they are willing to dedicate themselves to rigorous study of “non-fun” subjects because those are where the opportunities are. Pursuing what they naturally enjoy is considered a luxury they don’t have.”

      I totally agree. In a desperate attempt to push each one of my children into the science/math field –and because it didn’t hurt me academically to do so — I changed my major to linguistics. With this particular degree, I can still actively pursue a career in writing and public speaking. But more than anything, it will make my home conducive to the field of science, theories and thinking in the abstract.

      Right now I’m pursuing grants and scholarships so my oldest can begin studying abroad every summer, staring next year. Again, countries and programs that will reinforce her love for marine biology.

      To be honest, I do not believe my children have the luxury of doing something just because they love it…unless they take it up as a hobby.

    • DeStouet says:

      Oh, MY! YMG, I KNOW I just hit the jack pot with those links you shared with us. I can hardly contain my excitement. I’ve been filling out applications for my daughter for the last hour –and I am not anywhere near completed. Just wanted to take the time to again thank you –and give my eyes a rest.

      Thank you so very much.

    • YMB said: Also, I know science and technology is not for everyone, but I still suggest investigating careers in those areas to see if there is one that would be a good match. Just as not everyone in health care is a physician, not everyone in the technology sector is a rocket scientist. Skills in these areas will make it easier to immigrate to another country.

      I know this well. Especially since I have immigrant parents. It’s the reason I haven’t completely dropped the science and math part of my major even though they are not my strong points. Even though I’m not sure if I really want to work in the health field, I’m determined to have the prerequisites for PA and med school done just so I can grab the opportunity if I need to or if it presents itself.

      thanks for the advice and the websites, YMB!

  25. YMB,

    You said, “I have recently seen some confused self-hating AA folks whining on the web about “multi-generationally mixed” people…SMH at these folks’ pathetic attempts to be considered any and everything other than black. These people are somehow dazed about their “exotic” status not being accepted by the biracials.”

    {laughter} A friend’s daughter has seen this in real life. She knows another young BW who has been identifying herself as “tri-racial.” When my friend’s daughter quizzed her about what exactly does that mean, she went on and on and on about all her “multiracial” heritage. NONE of which is visible in her features. {chuckling} This particular confused, self-hating colored girl hasn’t learned faux-sophisticated vocabulary such as “multigenerational mixed.” {more laughter}

    You said, “Exactly. And so much outrage is expressed at AAs for claiming biracial people as black but little to none about White people rejecting biracial people as white.”

    The self-proclaimed “biracials” will never condemn White racism or Whites’ general refusal to grant them “White” status. How could they when they’re a bunch of slaves groveling to Whites? But that’s their self-created problem, not mine. {laughter}

    You said, “Since this is an open forum, I have a few suggestions about this website. I understand that you had the site professionally designed and that it might not so easily tweaked, but I’m just throwing this out there. It would make it easier for newer readers (and existing ones) to find previous posts covering specific topics if more tags were used and if a list of posts by date were listed somewhere in the sidebar and it is not so easy to navigate to older content using the previous. For example newer users might not understand what they should expect to find under posts tagged with “pop culture detox”. Also your posts would come up in more search results if a more expansive group of tags were used.”

    Right now, I’m not that concerned about search engine optimization for the site. Although, I have considered a few future tweaks for this site. Such as making it easier for readers to share blog posts by having my web designers add the “share this” buttons for facebook, etc. But that’s not urgent. I may or may not get around to that in the future.

    The thing is that redesign tweaks cost $$$. I use the proceeds from the book sales to finance the cost of site. I had already decided that once the site was launched that I would NOT invest any more of my own money into this site. So that means that I have to make trade-offs in deciding how to allocate those proceeds. Right now, I’m not all that willing to invest those proceeds into accomodating reader laziness.

    The other factor for me is maintaining a professional look for this site. That means that having a monthly archive on the side bar is out of the question. To me, having that gives a blog a mildly unprofessional, hobby type of appearance. So, I don’t want to do that here.

    If I did an monthly archive, it would most likely be listed at the very bottom of the page and lead to another page. See here for an example of an archive link that I like. Although he’s got it at the very top over his masthead—I’m not going to do that. I like the masthead just the way it is.

    Adding another page (the archive page) to the site costs $$$. I’m not sure that the readers you’re describing would think to look at the very bottom of the blog’s front page for a link to any monthly archives. So, that puts me in the spot of spending budgeted $$$ for a feature that the target recipients probably won’t even notice.

    I suppose I could have another category added to the sidebar titled “monthly archives,” however that still involves the cost of adding another page to the site.

    Bottom line: For now, I’m inclined to leave things as they are.

    Expect Success!

    • YMB says:

      Got it. Those minor suggestions were for only if it were easy, free or nearly so, and worth it to make the effort.

  26. halima says:

    Hello khadija

    I am inclined to believe that some of these bw or black girls who are now claiming triracial and all what not in their gene pool, are doing so out of a need to ‘survive’ within the corrupt black dating ‘system’ they feel confined to operate in.

    since they know that the notion of ‘mixed’ can get bm ‘interested’, i think a good bit of this behaviour is adaptation.

    I too have experinced the ‘are you mixed’ enquiry (and i cant be mistaken for mixed even on a dark night), so I know it is rampant out there with the young ones if i can experince it at my age. its almost as if the idea of being mixed has become more important than the actuality of it, which is possibly one reason why bw who do not ‘look’ mixed are seeing and taking an opportunity to claim mixed.

    black girls have not been given a reason to resist and stand strong in their monracial black identity. their older sisters (which is us and those ahead of us) have given no response to colorist activities in black men, that would say to them, ‘your ethnic self respect is not part of what you should be willing to sacrifice for bm, and if you have to choose other men, then so be it.’ instead we either pretend we dont see, possibly out of our own confusion and not knowing what to do for it (since other men are more or less forbidden under popular black nationalistic thought). I think a strong message rejecting colorism and rejecting black men if necessary, would have done a lot to help our girls not feel they had to claim, whatnot in them to get by!

    we their older sisters were not willing to ‘part’ with bm, if need be to retain this self respect. Many of us gave and continue to give weak watered down responses which leaves these girls feeling deep down that it is left for them to ‘do what they have to do’.

    I remember a couple of years ago, attending a womans forum where the issue came up. you shoudl have seen how one of the well known actresses just responded to a girl of 17 as if her issue was a none issue, or the situation wasnt a big deal and she could still find a way or whatever! i can quite easily see that girl (having not been given any meanigful tools to deal with her reality), going back to take on a ‘I am part ‘coolie” game plan just to get some play.

    just a thought.

  27. Hello Halima,

    You said, “I am inclined to believe that some of these bw or black girls who are now claiming triracial and all what not in their gene pool, are doing so out of a need to ’survive’ within the corrupt black dating ’system’ they feel confined to operate in.

    since they know that the notion of ‘mixed’ can get bm ‘interested’, i think a good bit of this behaviour is adaptation.”

    I think that attempts at humoring BM’s escalating fetish for lighter-brighter-Whiter women is a huge part of what’s going on with this “triracial” madness. However, I don’t think we can call it adaptive, since on a practical level it doesn’t work when the Trying To Pass As Whatnot-BW’s appearance doesn’t lend itself to passing as something other than monoracial and non-exotic. [**Addendum** On second thought, maybe it IS adaptive—because trying to have an even “lighter, Whiter” appearance or whatever has become the baseline. The baseline for even being in the running.]

    On one level, I would compare this “triracial” cr*p to the hazel, green, and blue contact lense fad among BW that I recall from the early 90s. Those contact lenses only had the desired effect for those BW who already looked as if those non-brown colors could have been their natural eye colors. In other words, non-dark BW.

    On another level, I would compare it to the processed hair and hair weave thing among BW. NOT to get into Hair Wars—and I won’t let anybody get off into Hair Wars here! I’m simply talking about the overall big picture about the hair situation.

    Right now, all of the pressure for BW to have processed, straightened hair is coming from other Black folks—most of all from BM. I’ve worn my hair in both natural and permed hair styles over the years. It was BM who were disappointed during those times that I either cut my previously long hair short, or wore it in a natural style. And these AA males were quite vocal in their disapproval of my choice to not keep my hair permed and long.

    However, I believe that similar to the hair thing, we can’t attribute all of this to BW’s efforts to humor Black-hating BM. There’s been an overall shift—backwards—in terms of BW’s attitudes about Blackness as well. That’s why there’s a cadre of BF Russell Simmons among us. That’s why there’s a cadre of BW who exclusively drool over “beautiful biracial children” among us. These BF Russell Simmons are AS sick as the majority of BM.

    These BF Russell Simmons are co-conspirators with colorstruck BM in killing young Black girls’ spirits! They do so with their (1) “I only think biracial children are ‘beautiful'” talk, and (2) by raising children who will grow up to be yet another set of people who oppress monoracial BW and Black girls. These BF Russell Simmons are creating future Tigger Woodses, and assorted other “don’t you dare call me Black” anti-Black racists.

    You said, “black girls have not been given a reason to resist and stand strong in their monracial black identity. their older sisters (which is us and those ahead of us) have given no response to colorist activities in black men, that would say to them, ‘your ethnic self respect is not part of what you should be willing to sacrifice for bm, and if you have to choose other men, then so be it.’ instead we either pretend we dont see, possibly out of our own confusion and not knowing what to do for it (since other men are more or less forbidden under popular black nationalistic thought).”

    I agree. As I said at the previous blog,

    Hello there, _______________!

    {excited waving}

    Don’t be embarrassed and don’t blame yourself. AA self-disrespect is an airborne contagion. It surrounds most of us 24/7. All of this really should have been straightened out during the 1960s. And my generation (I’m in my 40s) didn’t help the situation either—For the most part, we let the escalating colorism slide. Most AAs in my age group did and said nothing as the paper bag test escalated into a manila-folder-and-Whiter test.

    I just praise God that you got through all of that and are coming to a healthier sense of self. And you’re doing so early in life. There are so many of us who go to our graves being ashamed of our heritage. God is Good!

    Thank you for your courage in talking HONESTLY about all of this. I will post this tonight (with your name deleted, of course).

    Peace and blessings,
    Khadija
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I’ve been thinking about this email tonight. I’m old enough to be this young lady’s mother. It sickens me to know that this situation is the collective inheritance that African-American women in my age group left for her and others.

    Sometimes younger women don’t believe me when I tell them this, but the colorism was not this bad in the early 1980s. I’ve been speaking out about colorism since I was in high school in the 1980s. Over the years, very few other voices joined me. It has gotten WORSE since I was in high school. It has gotten a thousand times worse since the reign of Black Exploitation Television and hip-hop videos. And for the most part, women in my age group did and said nothing.

    Unless we commit ourselves to cultivating and protecting our own racial/ethnic self-respect, this is the legacy that we will leave for any children we have.

    http://muslimbushido.blogspot.com/2009/05/why-we-must-first-love-ourselves-as.html

    You said, “I think a strong message rejecting colorism and rejecting black men if necessary, would have done a lot to help our girls not feel they had to claim, whatnot in them to get by!

    we their older sisters were not willing to ‘part’ with bm, if need be to retain this self respect. Many of us gave and continue to give weak watered down responses which leaves these girls feeling deep down that it is left for them to ‘do what they have to do’.

    I agree. This is why I keep talking about the importance of racial and ethnic self-respect. Here’s the bottom line in terms of AA women and other similarly-situated BW (such as Caribbean-British BW in the UK):

    Things have reached a point that the above categories of BW must choose between having one OR the other 2 things.

    (1) Self-respect OR
    (2) A romantic relationship with a AA BM or Caribbean-British BM.

    In 95%+ instances, a BW can’t have both of these things at the same time. AA males and from what I hear Caribbean-British males are demanding that BW accept all sorts of degradation simply to be romantically involved with them. The sacrifices that are required for a BW to attract and appease these 2 types of BM ALL involve sacrifies of various manifestations of dignity. In order to attract and appease the vast majority of these 2 types of BM:

    • (1) To catch his eye in the first place, you must alter yourself to try to look as “other-ish,” non-Black, and “mixed” as you possibly can. If that involves hair dyes, contact lenses, weaves, perms, or whatever, so be it.
    • (2) You must give in to his desire to hook up and hope that he subsequently invites you on a date.
    • (3) You must be willing to chauffeur him around to the “dates.”
    • (4) You must go Dutch or pay for the expenses of the date.
    • (5) You must put out and have sex upon demand.
    • (6) You must accept being cheated on.
    • (7) You must accept babymama-hood, including eternal babymama-hood.
    • (8) You must accept being a side-piece.
    • (9) You must accept being a jump-off.
    • (10) You must keep your hair processed and long.
    • (11) If you can’t naturally grow long hair while subjecting your hair to harsh chemicals, you must wear a weave.
    • (12) If he agrees to “do you a favor” by marrying you, you must pay for your own engagement and wedding rings
    • (13) You must subsidize at least 50%, and preferably more, of the living expenses during the marriage
    • (14) You must never want, much less expect, the lifestyle of being a stay at home mother like women from other races. The same BM who will provide this lifestyle for non-BW should never be expected to provide this for any BW.

    Let me stop here, because the list of degrading demands that the above 2 categories of Negro males place on BW is almost endless. However, the main feature of all demands is that they involve BW sacrificing various aspects of human dignity. None of this is necessary. I think more of us need to spread the word that a BW doesn’t have to do all—or even ANY—of the above mess to find marriage with a QUALITY man in the global village.

    Expect Success!

  28. halima says:

    wow Khadija

    thank you for listing it the way you did, it just puts it all in clear frame. And before i forget, thank you for raising an important but obscured point (now and in the past) that even bw who are married are not escaping black female devaluation, and thus are expected to do more or put up with more for the ‘favour’ of a ring.

    SMH, you see sometimes you want things not to be that bad, and even BWE, too want to see some shiny positives within black interractions itself. Indeed i really wanted to believe that within black relationships ie the ones that have been formed, things were good (can bw catch a break at some point?). Maybe i was of the mind that married bw had ‘escaped’ the general devaluation that attends their sisters within the black dating and marriage arena. but no, I do indeed see this dynamic with freinds and acquintances and I wanted to believe it was ‘african culture’ thing at some point (because many african women here are frazzled and so overburdened and just the other day we had to prevent an african woman from injuring her son and it transpired that the poor woman just snapped from all she was laboring under and get this, there was a man in the picture!), but yes a certain expecatation of ‘bw as mules’ and women who dont need to be cherished and assisted, but must come laden down, is reinforced in the black social context and being married doesnt help a bw escape.

    are all IR perfect, not at all, but it is particularly worrying that even many married bw are in a state of devalution! very sad.

  29. Halima,

    You’re welcome! Guurl, this mess is craaay-zeee! And because individual bits of the madness (babymama-hood being celebrated on the cover of Messence magazine, for example) are being normalized in isolation, it can get hard to see just how insane the overall big picture is.

    You said, ” Maybe i was of the mind that married bw had ‘escaped’ the general devaluation that attends their sisters within the black dating and marriage arena.”

    Nope, not if they’re married to the “typical” AA male (or a man from a similarly dysfunctional group of males).

    You said, “are all IR perfect, not at all, but it is particularly worrying that even many married bw are in a state of devalution! very sad.”

    Indeed. Here’s the thing about the BF-IR marriages I’ve seen—non-AA/non-BM are NOT looking for their wives to be mules laden with burdens. This is because having a burdened mule wife would reflect poorly on their image among their peers as being competent providers. Non-AA men are raised to WANT to provide for their wives and children.

    Expect Success!

    • IRockIRoll says:

      I think a lot of the “normalizing in isolation” is that people tend to seek out those who are like them. I would say that in the beginning, babymamahood was a source of shame. Deep shame, that’s why I think so many women were very defiant in their attitudes of being “left” and started saying that they didn’t “need no man”. They weren’t the norm. And instead of seeing it as what it was, a (quite possibly necessary) defense tactic to maintain dignity and not feel victimized, folks took that and ran with it, all the way to the bank. Once the crack epidemics came about, and the rampant crime that occurred in a lot of cities, coupled with a relaxation of SOME cultural normatives, we (as a people) outright cashed the check on the expectation of a strong family structure without realizing that we didn’t have the cultural capital that mainstream America had while they were “relaxing” their expectations (but in regards to feminism, it was an expansion of expectations).

      I think in a lot of ways, I was very very lucky to have grown up close emotionally, and close in proximity to my grandparents before they passed away. I got to see up close and personal how my parents and several aunts and uncles jumped off a cliff in the 90’s and never looked back. My grandmother was, erm, a bit up-front in her opinions about people and their actions (so her saying off the cuff remarks wasn’t unusual) but one thing that got folks in an uproar like none other was her refusing to NOT say that all children are a gift from God, and that several women were going to lead some hard lives from the moment that she heard that they were pregnant. Well, she got in a mess of trouble with her church (eventually had to leave it) and while everyone around me was saying that Nana needed to get with the times, I realize now that she was right. My grandma didn’t get out of middle school, and knew this. The dating rules that she drilled in my head, “Don’t go layin’ up with no man that looks at the dinner bill too long”, (it was assumed he’d be taking me out to dinner in the first place), “Always have two nice dresses in your closet at ALL times just in case you get asked to go somewhere nice”, etc… etc… etc… have served me well. Shoot, at this point, a few women who made fun of me for being too picky call me up to ask if they should still be dating someone!

      When rap music came out, she was UPSET that we were listening to music that degraded black women, and wouldn’t let you play it in her house. Nana did not play that game. We tried to learn/do dances in the driveway, and if the songs had cursewords, you had to come indoors, or be sneaky and go down the street to somebody else’s house. She’s a large part of why I don’t really listen to rap music unless I’m at a club/dance party and someone puts it on the dj list. She saw the big picture. She said that it would do women no good to celebrate men calling us curse words, especially “fatherless Negroes from the projects too broke to get a woman no way” (like I said, she didn’t mince words). That it was “celebrating Lucifer in your living room”.

      These new “norms” are NOT normal, and you can see it in how children and adults are acting out, and needing people to lend justification to their behavior because it is not inherently justifiable. Other men look for wives who are stable women, the possiblity of being a good mother to their children who are attractive. We need to let go of this BBW, babymomma, needing to make sure that “we” can provide in a relationship too (b/c you are so right, men tend to resent that if you provide too well and they’re not from a home with a father). We need to GET BACK to what other women expect. My grandmother didn’t get out of middle school, and expected that whatever man she married was going to be able to take care and provide for her and her children. And that was in a time period where it was harder for black men to come up with their own income streams (literally, as in legally harder). We need to have that attitude too. Recession and all. I mean, you really and truly can do bad all by yourself. Your man needs to be an improvement in your life, not a detriment.

      The links I provided earlier, hopefully will give some women an idea of the mindset that my grandparents had. The ones by Mildred Taylor were definitely an affirmation for me growing up, and if there are those who weren’t exposed to them, I hope that you give them a shot. They include solid black families and teachable moments.

      • I Rock I Roll,

        You mentioned that your grandmother said things like, ““Don’t go layin’ up with no man that looks at the dinner bill too long”, (it was assumed he’d be taking me out to dinner in the first place), “Always have two nice dresses in your closet at ALL times just in case you get asked to go somewhere nice”, etc… etc… etc…”

        {wistful sigh} Your “Nana” sounds a LOT like my “Granny.” I’ve been thinking about her a lot lately (God rest her soul). As a high school and college student, I was deeply angry with her about a couple of issues, such as her internalized sexism and the resulting differences she made between me and my brother. However, looking back in retrospect, she was absolutely right about MANY things…

        Expect Success!

  30. halima says:

    Forgive me but I have to add this last point

    in the Uk we have a long history of ‘humouring’ bm’s anti black activities (because really what else is seeking the lightest woman about but anti blackness and anti ancestral blackness if you like).

    i remember years ago a black author who was behind the novel ‘baby mama’ (yes the brits wrote it first (shudders)), the novel that generated the popular and BBC produced baby father (yes bm perspective is privileged over bw and their work is more valued, not that i want baby mama valued!)said that, ‘why do bm need to date out when they can have a range of colors among bw?’.

    it is a slippery slope from there. Basically ‘hey bm, we are not going to challenge this white flesh lust, just satify it among us black women!’.

    to me this points back to what this whole ‘black solidarity’ and black unity boiled down to for many bw. black unity and black pride/ethnic pride at some point became one with/tied to ‘the black man’. by this i mean that by and large black unity was about ‘how we can build our lives with and around bm’.

    this meant that bm could go into the muck and bw would have to get down into that muckiness as well, because essentially black unity was the black man and was about all it took to be with one(hence the pride in the saying ‘I got myself a bm’). black unity was embodied as a black man, thus it wasnt something that could well be about avoiding many bm!

    black unity wasnt a ‘stand apart’ set of principles, instead it is ‘the black man’, so whatever the bm is getting up to, we have to either ‘work with it’, ‘transform it’ to make it fit into the black plan, or even though on the face of it, we think ‘surely this is not what black pride is about’, we have to suspend disbelief because following the black man will eventually (magically) always lead us to the centre of black unity, so have faith!

    with a stand apart set of principles governing black unity/solidarity thought, it could easily be seen that some black people were now ‘apostate,’ and should be excluded or that bm were clearly operating against the core principles of black unity/solidarity and needed to get right or be put out!

    i guess what i am saying really is that black unity and solidarity (and i mean the true and real deal not the corrupt one) at some point became ‘less important’ than the black man and whatever he wanted to be about!

  31. I have a friend getting married in two weeks and # 12, 13, 14 apply to her specifically. She has lost all ability to think and reason like a normal person!

    By his own account this twice divorced dude is “broke, busted and disgusted”, but owns two cars (well, one still has a $800+ payment)…..I’ll stop there because the situation is as bad as you can imagine.

    Slightly more sane friends have tried to convince her that perhaps marrying a guy you met seven months ago; moving him into your house; paying the most of the bills; and working a full and a part-time job to his one, might not be wise.

    To no avail.

    It’s blowback from this kind of insane desperation empowered AA women have to deal with. Clearly there are all manner of self-worth, self-love, self-respect and PTSD (family or origin toxicity)issues at play. As well as her panic at being 40+ and unmarried.

    She is a real life cautionary tale. No man is worth this. Ever!

    Peace

    • SouthlandDiva,

      You said, “I have a friend getting married in two weeks and # 12, 13, 14 apply to her specifically. She has lost all ability to think and reason like a normal person!”

      {shaking my head} And if it’s not already happening, soon she’ll be dealing with #6. Males like that parasite take the money that their foolish wives give them and spend it on other women….women who have to be wooed in order to pay them any attention.

      And in that list, I left out the frequently added-on, “a la carte” feature of a BW getting her head boxed by the BM parasite that she’s financially carrying. Quiet as it’s kept, these BM parasites deeply resent and come to hate the BW they leech off of.

      I’ll say a prayer for your friend.

      **Addendum**
      While I’m thinking about this, let me add my 2 cents about the connection between a BW financially subsidizing a Negro male and her getting her head boxed by said parasite. Often, the women who do that also try to use their financial support of their huzzbands as leverage. Many of them try to use the money like an allowance doled out to a child to control their trifling, parasitical BM huzzbands. I’m NOT saying this to in any way excuse or justify domestic violence. I’m simply being truthful in describing what I’ve seen of these women’s behavior patterns in these set-ups.

      I’m also saying that this entire set-up is totally outside of divine order; and there are negative consequences that are inherently attached to this type of marital arrangement. It doesn’t work because it’s contrary to people’s biologically ingrained inclinations. Most males want to feel as if they’re men, even when they’re unfit to perform a true man’s function (protecting and providing for the women and children in his orbit). So, even though he’s living like a 10-year-old boy, a physically mature male is NOT going to react well to being given an allowance by his wife. Even after he begged, pleaded, and ultimately demanded this same allowance.

      And if the wife tries to use the allowance she’s giving him to nag him into performing a man’s duty—which he is unfit to perform—then she needs to watch out…that’s a dangerous spot to be in.

      About this allowance these sorts of wives give to their trifling huzzbands: Since, as noted above, males want to feel like they’re men even when they’re not—these parasitical huzzbands will usually spend the allowance they got from their wives on other women. Spending money on a woman—especially the type of woman who won’t settle for going Dutch (or any other such nonsense)—makes the BM parasite feel manly.

      Bottom line: This type of scenario is all one big, hot mess to be rejected out of hand. It’s NOT a woman’s God-given function to subsidize some physically adult male. And a real man would not want a woman to do that.

      Expect Success!

  32. Halima,

    You said, “it is a slippery slope from there. Basically ‘hey bm, we are not going to challenge this white flesh lust, just satify it among us black women!’.

    Similar mess has been said by AAs on this side of the pond. And then silly AA women ran with this mess and twisted it around into some such bs of “celebrating all of our vibrant colors.” AA women said and continue to speak this lie. Even though they know that the original intent behind the “internal rainbow” was ALL about accomodating AA males’ fetish for lighter and Whiter flesh. This was one of many examples of BW trying to transform a steaming piece of feces into a peach cobbler with a scoop of ice cream on top…Alchemy doesn’t work so well in real life.

    You said, “this meant that bm could go into the muck and bw would have to get down into that muckiness as well, because essentially black unity was the black man and was about all it took to be with one(hence the pride in the saying ‘I got myself a bm’). black unity was embodied as a black man, thus it wasnt something that could well be about avoiding many bm!”

    This reminds me of the AA “I Have a BMW = Black Man Working” saying (which always makes my skin crawl when I hear it). {Ewwwwwww….}

    You said, “black unity wasnt a ’stand apart’ set of principles, instead it is ‘the black man’, so whatever the bm is getting up to, we have to either ‘work with it’, ‘transform it’ to make it fit into the black plan, or even though on the face of it, we think ’surely this is not what black pride is about’, we have to suspend disbelief because following the black man will eventually (magically) always lead us to the centre of black unity, so have faith!”

    More pretending that “feces cobbler” is peach cobbler.

    You said, “with a stand apart set of principles governing black unity/solidarity thought, it could easily be seen that some black people were now ‘apostate,’ and should be excluded or that bm were clearly operating against the core principles of black unity/solidarity and needed to get right or be put out!”

    Indeed. And BM’s insistence upon zero accountability for their nonstop betrayals of their Black unity rhetoric has BW entertaining such nonsense as BM’s arguments that the Kardashian tramps aren’t “really” White because they’re of Armenian descent. Like I said before, the Negro males peddling that mess need to say that to some Armenian-Americans’ faces. And see what happens in response—it won’t be pretty. All of which gets back to my tune-out sermons about why AA women (and other similarly situated BW) need to stop talking or listening to the vast majority of BM.

    Expect Success!

  33. Karen says:

    Here I am, late again. I guess I can only sum it up this way:

    Why on God’s earth would I be interested in a group of men that are not willing to accept me as I am?????

    Any rational thinking human being will not chase after something that despises their very existence.

    I consider myself “rational”, LOL, but seriously, once it was apparent that the interest was not in me the person but whether I passed the “paper bag”/”manila folder” test, it was GAME OVER.

    I have never looked back. With 6 billion people on the planet, there is truly no need to settle for foolishness.

    To the young ladies out there, from a veteran who took the road less traveled – it is worth it!!!!

    Recognize your worth as a human being and as a woman with grace. Go out into the world and move away from that which is corrupt.

    Let the dead bury the dead.

  34. Magenta says:

    Don’t have too much to add, I just wanted to say I appreciated you providing a space where BW can discuss these important issues and come up with solution.

    What has been amazing is how timely (or ahead of your time) some of the counsel gave has been. I remember on the other blog you discussed BW needing to leave the helping professions. Today there has been a a series of angry emails, tweets, etc. from angry BW educators I know furious over Michelle Rhee and her anti-teacher rhetoric on Oprah. Her type has been around for as long as I can remember, but what has been amazing is how more and more people have bought into this “lets blame the teachers” talk.

    Anyway, many of the BW teachers I know are angry and hurt that they are being made the scapegoat of decades of political and cultural failings. I am not sure if you want to do another “I told you so” series on this matter, but it is something worth considering.

    So many BW are being steered into these careers (in the feminist movement, female populated helping professions are referred to as a “female ghetto”) not knowing what they are getting into, they devote so much of their time and energy and to be treated like this is sad. Everything you predicted is coming to fruition.

  35. Karen,

    You said, “I have never looked back. With 6 billion people on the planet, there is truly no need to settle for foolishness. To the young ladies out there, from a veteran who took the road less traveled – it is worth it!!!!

    Recognize your worth as a human being and as a woman with grace. Go out into the world and move away from that which is corrupt. Let the dead bury the dead.

    Indeed. I 100% cosign.
    ____________________________________________

    Magenta,

    You said, “What has been amazing is how timely (or ahead of your time) some of the counsel gave has been.”

    What can I say? Among other pursuits, I’m a geostrategy nerd! 🙂 I’ve been planting these seeds hoping that people will remember what they heard as events unfold (as predicted), and take appropriate action.

    You said, “I remember on the other blog you discussed BW needing to leave the helping professions. Today there has been a a series of angry emails, tweets, etc. from angry BW educators I know furious over Michelle Rhee and her anti-teacher rhetoric on Oprah. Her type has been around for as long as I can remember, but what has been amazing is how more and more people have bought into this “lets blame the teachers” talk.

    Anyway, many of the BW teachers I know are angry and hurt that they are being made the scapegoat of decades of political and cultural failings. I am not sure if you want to do another “I told you so” series on this matter, but it is something worth considering.”

    Since it’s tacky to say “I told you so,” I reserved that for what I felt were the most dire situations. Such as (1) the unfolding catastrophic effects of AAs trusting their economic survival to the Obamas-ssiah. And (2) the hints that the federal government had been giving about the expected deaths of cities with large AA populations. (I had warned in advance about the planned bulldozing and shrinking of Detroit and other cities. Quiet as its kept in the US media—the foreign media report some of these stories—the federal government has been pulling the plug on the cities with large AA populations.)

    But yes, it’s essential that AA women leave the helping fields. For many reasons. Creatures like that Michelle Rhee broad turn my stomach.

    I have a lot of relatives who are teachers. Since I was a small girl, I’ve watched them spend quite a bit of their own money on buying supplies for their students. My mother is a retired teacher and librarian. She bought her own mimeograph machine when I was small. On the weekends, she always made her own sets of extra worksheets for the children in her classroom. I can remember the smell of the machine fluid, and how happy I was when she would let me crank the machine handle.

    Mom did “extra” things like this for DECADES. Nobody reimbursed her. She wasn’t looking for reimbursement. She did it because she cared about the children in her classroom. I praise God that Mom was able to retire before the employment situation for teachers became totally insane.

    Expect Success!

  36. IRockIRoll says:

    I’m going to ruminate on the comments for a few more minutes, but I would like to say this to the audience, I may be showing my age here, but I’m feeling more and more fortunate to having seen and read these books as a SMALL child. For some of the adults here, they may be a starting point. In confronting some inner demons, these were books (that’ll I’ll hopefully be able to explain later, if allowed (Khadija, this is YOUR house, edit as necessary, including the paragraph entered, in fact, if you only want to post the links, I only hope that these books help some) that were break through for me at an early age. I can’t even BELIEVE I’m going there, but if some of ya’ll need a real-check on how black women have been so denigrated in the past 20-years plus, even JEM, the cartoon, had a hot black woman in the back-up band (just like all of the other differing hair colored women in the cartoon/Barbie fantasy) which today would be a toddling overweight woman worrying about her man. Time/culture/everything has more against black women’s advancement now that it is OBVIOUS that we’re on the horizon.

    http://www.amazon.com/Thank-You-Martin-Luther-King/dp/0440414075

    http://www.amazon.com/Roll-Thunder-Puffin-Modern-Classics/dp/0142401129/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1285033625&sr=1-1

    http://www.amazon.com/Let-Circle-Unbroken-Mildred-Taylor/dp/0140348921/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_4

    http://www.amazon.com/Road-Memphis-Mildred-D-Taylor/dp/0140360778/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_6

    http://www.amazon.com/Sounder-William-H-Armstrong/dp/0060809752

    http://www.amazon.com/Autobiography-Malcolm-Told-Alex-Haley/dp/0345350685/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1285033769&sr=1-1

    http://www.amazon.com/Shiloh-Phyllis-Reynolds-Naylor/dp/0689835825/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1

    (Shiloh isn’t a black oriented novel, perhaps, that is the point? It was another perspective on the Civil War as a child, something, that some readers may need to move on(?) please feel free to exclude if it doesn’t vibe with you.)

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0394820371/useekufind/

    (always a check point)

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0590434616/useekufind/

    (a check point for how much more imaginative we can be). I’m writing past this, but still, so many I know are aware of this one novel.

    (we can’t do this?)

    I’ve been doing more and more. But a QUICK look back at other folks should give us the courage to forge forwards. We come up with crazier *ish and more entertaining stories at FAMILY BARBECUES than most folks. Don’t WASTE it on the innanets and texts, WRITE YOUR IMAGINATION.

    LIVE YOUR IMAGINATION. I may sound a bit batty, but a hundred years ago, it you told folks that men on the moon were common, we were now looking for intelligence to interact with us, seeing as we had discovered star systems and could communicate across the world in seconds and get to India in 8 hours or less, you would have been thought to have been taking crazy pills (which didn’t exist at the time outside of heroin hits). Jurassic Park was the paramount of what was possible, and now folks are fighting against 3-D. 3-D. Peeps upset about CONTACT PRESCRIPTIONS, and the interference of that with 3-D movie prices. BLACK AMERICAN WOMEN, BE LIKE THE BIBLE AND LET YA’LLS PEOPLE GO!

    Um, here’s a head’s up from someone who has wasted YEARS of time, woulda’ been a decade if not for these wake up calls… Ya’LL are POSSIBLE!!!!!!! At everything. So go. Seriously. I look at these sites and wonder if I wouldn’t have had the opps that I had a younger age with folks TRYING to tell me how bad it was in OUR community, what different choices or attentions I would have paid to certain peeps. As a younger black woman (under 35 above 21) ya’ll need to RECOGNIZE the service that this woman is providing ya’ll and BENEFIT.

    This, right here, right now, is an option, a time period, an opportunity for black women to jump on. And there are too many who could benefit from this free ride.

    http://ocw.mit.edu/index.htm

    I feel unaccomplished in some areas, and yet, I’ve been able to see more than MOST of the world that EVER EXISTED will ever experience in terms of opportunities. Run it ya’ll.

  37. IRockIRoll says:

    I admit to replying to this response before reading the rest, but from knowing a number of teachers who retired once corporal punishment was such an outlawed offense, thank you for mentioning the fact that a lot of educators quit once control of the classroom was left to public opinion.

    No one EVER wants to admit to the social dynamics of teaching, regardless of test-scores, tax bases, or (boogeyman voice) absence of paternal involvement. That’s some third-railing right there.

  38. Rhonda says:

    Khadija,

    My apology, again, but I’m having computer problems. So, could you please delete all my comments today previous to this one, because, I think, those comments will appear with most of the text in italics. What I’m posting below are the exact same words, just that I fixed the italics on it.

    Thanks,
    Rhonda
    =======================================================

    An alpha man is the dominant male of a group. The alpha male gets to spread his seed amongst the females [of his choosing]. The alpha male is about biological/genetic dominance. With most animals, this status is attained through physical force: The lion that fights the (usually, older and not as strong as he used to be) alpha male for dominance, succeeds, then takes over the pride, usually killing all the cubs sired by the former alpha male. (Chimps do this, too. Although, the females, often, if they can, will try, as a group, to protect the babies from the new alpha male’s murder spree.) Sometimes, with human males, the alpha status is bestowed on him at birth, dependent upon the status of his parents, like with a king. (I forget the phrase for it, but it used to be that the lord of the manor/land, if he wanted to, could have sex with the bride of his male serf on the couple’s wedding night, prior to the couple consummating their marriage! The husband could not protest. It was seen as an honour for the lord to choose his wife to have sex with, for there was the chance that if she became pregnant, that the child could be the offspring of the lord, thus having his “superior” genes.) The alpha human male is not necessarily the smartest bloke in the group; he may not be a good leader. He may not be the most financially successful, or financially successful at all. Bill Gates is not an alpha male. Many alpha males are the bully of the group, who holds on to his status through intimidation, and the others in the group’s fear of him–Hitler was an alpha male. Human alpha males are not necessarily the best providers (the American definition of such), because being alpha male is about reproduction, spreading your seed, your genes. I notice that many folks mis-label some people “bourgie,” because they don’t know the meaning of the word “bourgeoisie,” I find that the label “alpha male” is misused, too. In reality, most women do better not choosing the alpha male as her life-time mate. The non-alpha human male is the one who sticks around and provides for the children; who is usually monogamous (the human animal is probably not naturally monogamous; if anything, we’re serial monogamists); who’ll make sure food is in the female’s belly when she is pregnant and cannot provide for herself in that vulnerable physical state; who’ll stick around with her past the peak of her sexuality, her reproductive years — you’ll find this non-alpha man lying in bed next to you when you are old.

    “Too many chiefs, not enough Indians.” ( <– My apology for quoting that racist sentence.) Silly statement I've heard made by American black nationalists for us to feel proud to be black, not just the descendants of slaves: "In Africa, we were kings and queens." I slightly disagree with you, Khadija, about Asian women's deliberate coupling with, choosing of, white [alpha] men. First, there just ain't that many white men who are alpha males; although, in the hierarchy of American society, the white male is at the top of the totem pole.

    Second, my unscientific observational study, from living in a city with a majority and majority-minority Chinese population, reveals that Asian women just have White Boy Fever (WBF).

    Third, Asians are no more than four-percent of the US population. And, like other minority groups, there are certain areas where they are concentrated, like San Francisco, so there looks like there are lots of them, if you live in that place. And since, in my opinion, Asian women have WBF, and they are open to dating/marrying outside of their race (mostly, white men), it looks like white men are crazy for them. But that is not the case: most white American men date/marry white women. White men in America are a much larger group than Asian women are, so if every Asian woman wanted a white man, she could have one. And since Asian women "disproportionately" date/marry white men, it looks like those couples (AW/WM) are huge.

    Fourth, Asian men are much better providers for their families than even the American white man. The recent poverty stats revealed by the US Census Bureau has shown that Asians are the only group for whom the poverty rate has not risen.

    • Rhonda,

      Done; earlier comment deleted!

      Thanks for the terminology correction. Although, in this case, I think I’ll continue using the incorrect term. Because even though it’s being misused, the popular understanding of the term “alpha male” conjures up a much better set of attributes that AA women need to look for in a husband and father for their children. In its incorrect use, it’s still a good shorthand for a constellation of useful traits in a man.

      Asians aren’t that heavily concentrated in the Chicago area, so I haven’t seen the masses of them that you’ve observed. And, the ones that I’ve been able to watch up close have all been Korean. So, I’ll defer to your observations that you described when you said, “that Asian women just have White Boy Fever (WBF).”

      You said, “Fourth, Asian men are much better providers for their families than even the American white man. The recent poverty stats revealed by the US Census Bureau has shown that Asians are the only group for whom the poverty rate has not risen.”

      True. However, there are some other variables to consider in the “provider” evaluation. Such as how much cr*p must Asian women tolerate from the “typical” Asian husband?

      I would suspect that the more money is offset by more cultural sexist mess with the “typical” Asian man. Feminist thought has not made that much headway among the Koreans that I’ve observed. So, it seems to me that one component of the White Boy Fever is that American White men have been trained to be relatively less sexist than at least the Korean/Korean-American men that I’ve observed.

      Expect Success!

  39. Kay says:

    Wow. I am amazed at the breath and insightfulness of all the comments and points-of-view provided here. I think the comments about economics and education peak my interest the most, so I am grateful to the commenter who brought of that topic of jobs.

    I understand the argument for steering away from the helping professions, but does that exclude the more prestigious helping profession careers in medicine too (beyond nursing careers)?

  40. Kay,

    You said, “I understand the argument for steering away from the helping professions, but does that exclude the more prestigious helping profession careers in medicine too (beyond nursing careers)?”

    Here are my 2 cents—prestige is important (people deserve to be appreciated for their study and skills), but it’s not the only factor. I would rank control over one’s work environment AND clientele as being the critical difference between a career that’s actually rewarding versus a gravedigger job that’s shaving years off your life.

    In terms of medicine, the nature of being a physician has changed since the HMO era began. Most patients are tied into some sort of HMO-type set-up through their employers. Which means those patients can only see doctors who are within those networks. I really liked one of my previous primary care doctors. However, when it came contract renegotiation time, his team (lawyer, accountant, whoever else) was not able to come to an agreement with my HMO. Therefore, he was no longer in that network. So, I couldn’t afford to see him anymore. He lost me (and who knows how many other folks) as a patient because of this. This situation is quite different from the pre-HMO era.

    With the HMO-ization of medicine, doctors have lost large chunks of control over both their patient pool and their work environment. There are now bean-counters at the HMO making and reviewing patient care decisions. So, medicine still pays well (in the end, after racking up huge student loans), but it’s not what it used to be before the HMO era.

    In order to comprehensively cover the various nuances to this issue, I’ll repeat some comments I made at the previous blog about this topic:

    It’s one thing if AAW are seriously choosing the options that track their interests and bliss after careful reflection on the topic. But that’s NOT what the vast majority of us are doing. We’re allowing ourselves to be funnelled and steered into a narrow slice of what’s available—the “helping” versions of various fields.

    I was blessed to have parents who actively questioned and challenged my professional choices. They did NOT want me to involve myself in serving the poor. [Or as my mother put it so elegantly, “Why in the world would you involve yourself in those tacky, tawdry, sordid types of cases?”]

    So, I was challenged to seriously think about what I was doing. This questioning pushed me to make an INFORMED choice about my professional life at that time. What I went into is actually what I wanted to do at the time. I’m currently exhausted and burnt out with it; but the area I chose was my sincere and considered choice at that time.

    My issue is that most AA women are NOT making considered, informed choices about their work lives.

    Unfortunately, most of us don’t have that sort of questioning that I got from our families and friends. Many of us are the first ones in our families to go to college; and therefore the people around us are unduly impressed with whatever work we choose.

    Also, most AAs think that it is only fitting and natural for AA women to steer themselves into “helping” sorts of fields.

    I’m saying NO! I’m saying that there’s a big world of other things to do—things to do where one is more likely to find satisfaction and appreciation for one’s efforts than the “helping” fields.

    . . . Here’s my starting point with every issue: I believe that AA women deserve to have rewarding lives in safe environments where their talents and efforts are appreciated and valued. THIS is what I’m calling to for AA women across the board. Full-spectrum rewarding and fulfilling lives. In their personal and work lives.

    The problem isn’t so much the “helping” part. The problem is all of the physical danger, stress, ingratitude, disrespect, and emotional abuse that is an INHERENT part of the so-called “helping” professions. Many of these professions have a history of being mistreated because these tend to be female-populated professions.

    Historically female-populated “helping” professions are disrespected and mistreated in ways that would NEVER happen with historically male-dominated fields.

    Let me give an example: This whole, absurd notion of local community councils having actual authority over neighborhood public schools. It’s INSANE to give laypeople command and control authority over trained educators. THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN TO DOCTORS OR LAWYERS. Nobody would even dream of trying to put laypeople over doctors’ and lawyers’ exercise of professional judgment. Because that’s obviously crazy.

    Laypeople’s opinions are NOT consulted when it comes to the day-to-day running of hospitals, law firms, or the courts. But somehow people perceive it as okay to do this to public school teachers. I believe that this attitude exists only because of sexism.

    If you’re going to help, make sure you do so as an EMPOWERED helper who has a measure of CONTROL over your work environment and your clientele. Control versus a total lack of control over one’s work environment is what makes all the difference between rewarding work and a gravedigger career.

    So, to specifically answer your question: If you have found a “helping” career environment where you are physically SAFE, treated with RESPECT, and adequately REWARDED for your efforts, then go for it. However, be aware that this type of situation is NOT the norm for the “helping” fields.

    Because this sort of healthy, rewarding environment is not the norm in these fields, I strongly urge and advise Black women to STAY AWAY from the helping fields. It’s NOT worth it. Not at all. There are better and more rewarding ways to spend one’s work life. Black women deserve safe work environments where their talents and efforts are appreciated and valued.

    . . . Anonymous,

    You said, “Similarly, laypeople have control over which doctor or lawyer they pay their money to. So, yes, laypeople do have power over the exercise of judgement in those professions.”

    No, I disagree. Laypeople have the power to take their business elsewhere. That’s all. Laypeople do NOT get to micro-manage the practice of law or medicine the way they are allowed to micro-manage public education.

    Laypeople can take their business elsewhere; they DON’T get to tell doctors which instruments to use while performing a surgery or lawyers how to write the motions they file. Laypeople DON’T get to decide the day-to-day operations of the courts.-

    Another thing is that people forget that the public schools are FORCED to take everybody. From the mentally deranged children to the child soldiers/criminals. Many of these children are going to fail wherever they go, and under any type of educational regime.

    At which point, the “grassroots” will clamor to force feed these failing children into any succeeding schools that remain. And if these schools are forced to accept these types of children, then their achievement statistics will go down.

    The bottom line is that the “grassroots” and their champions will destroy every setting that lets them in. And everything in their path. The reason for this is that they “grassroots” reject the very things that lead to success and progress—such as holding people (including children) accountable for their choices. Choices such as the choice to refuse to pay attention in school. The choice to not do any homework. The choice to misbehave. And so on.

    . . . Soon, “urban” Black folks will have the teachers they deserve and earn with their behavior: A revolving door of WW who work among them for only a couple of years until they get married and become stay at home mommies.

    . . . [Librarian-Reader,]

    You said, “You want to talk about unsafe situations, how about adult men looking at pornography in the open. We used to make them close it down…Kids fighting. Damaged and defaced materials and equipment. The mentally ill people who needed to be escorted off the property.

    …However, no one wanted to read. No one wanted to learn. I know the new media is obviously, digital, but the people we serviced only wanted to check out social networking sites or read trash.

    …I knew after helping my inner city people for seven years in a thankless, sometimes unsafe job (we had a police officer on duty) where people want to come to socialize, braid each other’s hair and look for their baby daddies on the prison website, that tomfoolery was enough for me.”

    OMG. Go to the public library to “braid each other’s hair”?! WTH?!! I find this reality check example of how “our people” actually behave to be as offensive as the public porn surfers. That’s just so disrespectful to the purpose of the library. Sheniquas need to braid their hair at home. Presumably, in front of the tv. FAR away from people who actually want to do something productive.

    Expect Success!