Don’t Stop Short, Tell The WHOLE Truth—It’ll Set You Free
This is a follow-up to For All Practical Purposes, Most Self-Proclaimed Good Black Men™ = Pookie And Ray-Ray. We’ve been discussing the post, For My Critics: If You Have A Better Solution Bring It from Von’s Black Consciousness; the conversation over there about the post, and the implications of both. At first, I was going to write a separate essay, but I think that you—the readers—have explained various angles the best.
GOOD BLACK MEN™ HAVE A SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP WITH POOKIE AND RAY-RAY
A reader named Muse said,
Even though I’m not around thugs or criminals in my circle or environment, it doesn’t mean I don’t encounter DBRs. I think the career-orientated/ professional DBRs are more dangerous because their dysfunctional thinking and behavior isn’t that obvious to the naked eye. As a woman you have to be on guard and pay close attention to their behavior to spot the non-thug DBR Negro. These individuals cover up their degenerate behavior with their degrees and careers. They have a complex and entitlement issues as Von mentioned in her post, which translates to the poor treatment of Black women. These guys are also the same types to defend the obvious DBR and put blame solely on women for the issues impacting the “community.”
These awful individuals take advantage of the numbers working against black women and use that to exploit the good women they do encounter. Black women are jumping through hoops and compromising their integrity just to be with these men without any reciprocity. In fact these gainfully employed pseudo-nice guys are kicking back and enjoying their harem of Black women catering to their every need. Sadly so many black women are so desperate for the IBM (Ideal Black Man) on paper, that they give these pseudo-nice guys a pass because of their education and careers even if they are being treated like garbage. I’ve told my male friends and associates countless times that if they use women as sperm dumpsters they are no better than the Pookie and Ray-Rays.
The black women who manage exchange nuptials with these pseudo-nice guys aren’t in a better position. Now they have to maintain their super woman status. Not only do these women have to have a high power career and bring home the bacon, they also have to play the role of the housewife, sex goddess, and super wife. These women experience the double burden that many feminists write about. They have to maintain careers and the household without much support. I’ve actually spoken to friends who married these types of men and looking back most of them regret getting married to these losers.
On paper and to the outside world they look like the power couple having the Barrack and Michelle fantasy but behind closed doors they are suffering because they are alone in their marriage. In fact some of these women are also dealing with unfaithful husbands. These Negros who grew up with nothing suddenly think that just because they have their degrees and fancy job titles they can do whatever they want, even if it means disrespecting their wives. Many of them have women on the side and its expected behavior as long as he comes home to the wife.
As a disclaimer not all professional black men act like this however I can’t begin to tell you how many of these pseudo-nice guys have hit on me during happy hour or tried to make me their mistress at professional conferences. Luckily I have too much self-respect and ego to be someone’s side chick. This brings me to the point that women have to look beyond job titles and credentials when evaluating a mate. It takes patience and discipline but at the end you will thank yourself for having high standards for your life.
A reader named Oshun/Aphrodite said,
I think Pookie and Nice Guy™ take up for one another. They work hand in hand in destroying BW. They look out for one another and fuel each other. They have a code/contract. As long as Nice Guy™ doesn’t actually throw salt in Pookie’s game (like stopping him or protecting women from him) Nice Guy™ is allowed to use him in order to run his own brand of game on women. And as much as Nice Guy claims to hate Pookie – they never rat them out. They always jump on the women who were naive or vulnerable after the fact. After the damage has been done.
A reader named Joyous Nerd said,
Wow, powerful commentary here, Von really knocked it out of the park. Of course Good Black Men are not going to step in and stop Pookie and Jaquarvius…. those low class BM are creating the wonderful life that these middle class men are savoring!
Without low rent thugs creating hellish conditions for black women and black children, BW would never be so desperate and willing to tolerate abuse, cheating and a whole host of other foolishness. The shortage is what gives Good Black Man the ability to have a harem till he crumbles of old age. If those bums weren’t so incomparably degenerate, the Good Black Men would still miss the mark by miles compared to functional men of other races.
My thing is that, until I read Von’s post, I hadn’t really taken note of how heavily invested most self-proclaimed Good Black Men™ are in scapegoating underclass Pookie and Ray-Ray—while doing NOTHING to check Pookie’s and Ray-Ray’s destructive behavior. Pookie and Ray-Ray aren’t the only (or even the majority of) AA males who are actively engaging in destructive, anti-family formation, anti-life behaviors. Most of these self-proclaimed Good Black Men™ are the SAME as Pookie and Ray-Ray in terms of being irresponsible womanizers.
Also just the SAME as Pookie and Ray-Ray, most self-proclaimed Good Black Men™ are always care-RECIPIENTS from BW and never care-PROVIDERS to Black women. Often, including never providing active, material care to their own Black mothers and other Black female relatives who have supported their aspirations over the years.
I also hadn’t made the connection between this scapegoating and the fact that most self-proclaimed Good Black Men™ measure themselves and their manhood (such as it is) by what Pookie and Ray-Ray are doing or not doing; *not* by what mostly functional, nonblack men are doing. The mind boggles.
. . . The distinction I make isn’t about a man being racially “Black.” It’s about how dysfunctional the masses of (mostly fatherless) modern African-American males are at this point. I would tell a marriage-minded BW to bypass the vast majority of AA males.
. . . There are a handful of BM like Victor, Black SeaGoat, and others who will be stern and firm in confronting and chastising destructive BM. But these real men only constitute approximately 2% of the AA male population. There are just too few of them for them to be able to affect the tidal wave of AA male mutants. Like “Saigon,” the microscopic numbers of protective and provider BM have been overrun.
THE BLACK MEN IN THEIR LATE 40s AND EARLY 50s WHO START DATING AND THEN MARRY YOUNGER BLACK CHURCH WOMEN AREN’T REDEEMED—THEY’RE LOOKING FOR A NURSE FOR THEIR OLD AGE
A reader named AK said,
I’ll never forget Khadija when you talked about your BM lawyer acquaintance who thought he was goin’ round town straight up ballin’ with a little black book as thick as a Bible until he had a stroke and then NOBODY had time for him anymore, and he had OOW kids from his escapades, you said, who I’m sure he expects them to show up now or soon even though he never wanted to show up for them. Just because he’s a lawyer black people would swear up and down that he was a Good Black Man (TM), especially the black women.
That’s a shame about this acquaintance left high and dry after such a debilitation but if he’d have lived life a bit differently and with more accountability, he’d have support in his situation and not have to go through it all alone. Oh well! I hope he has plenty of savings left over for himself that he hasn’t squandered on too many trinkets, or on bad investments, or anything.
Many of the unmarried, professional AA male bedhoppers’ basic game plan is that they’ll marry a much-younger BW church lady when they feel themselves getting close to old age for real. They figure that when they hit their early 50s, then they’ll marry a 30-something or younger AA church lady. That way, they’ll have a younger wife ready and prepped to take care of them once they become truly elderly and sickly.
Where my BM attorney acquaintance messed up is that he had the stroke before he had identified or started dating a much younger BW church girl to take care of him when he got old and sickly. Of course, he didn’t expect anything like that to happen. He figured he had more time to sleep around (he was around his mid- to late 40s when he had the stroke). It turned out that he had waited too long to start looking for a church girl to take care of him in his future old age and poor health. If he had timed it better, then he probably would have gotten over the hump.
And since he had the stroke while he has still in obvious player mode, none of his jumpoffs wanted to be bothered with taking care of his rear end. None of the women he was sleeping with were actual girlfriends. So, they didn’t feel any obligation to help him.
A reader named Lisa99 said,
The BW church girl racket is another thing on my long list of complaints about the traditional AA Christian church.
So I know a BW, 35, never married, who is getting married next June. She talks about how she was so glad she waited on “God’s timing” and didn’t force things on her own, etc. A pastor introduced her to her future husband and within three months they were engaged. There wasn’t any formal proposal (which is not necessarily a big deal, but keep reading), but he just brought up the fact that he wanted to marry her and they just kinda fell into an engagement.
Now… I later learn that this man is 49, previously married, been divorced for about 6-7 years. Don’t know about kids. I know nothing about this man and he could be wonderful. But it’s rather fishy to me how quickly he made a move on a younger (but never-married and ready) BW church girl… as if he was on that plan of making sure he found a “good churchgoing woman” right at the time he realized he was too old to keep bedhopping.
And now, the woman is so excited talking about what God delivered her and folks at the church are using this story as an example of God answering prayers. Now I don’t necessarily believe that God is in the matchmaking business, but if so, I find it hard to believe that this 35-year-old, never-married woman’s pre-ordained destiny is a divorced man darn near 50 years old…
I just smiled when I heard the story and wished the woman well.
In reply, I said,
What’s fishy to me is how so many AA women—especially AA church women—choose to be blind and dumb about this obvious behavior pattern. How do they not notice that these breaking-down/broke down BM players only come to them when they sense they’re coming to the point when they’ll need somebody to physically take care of them? What happened to these church girls’ pet phrase about being “unequally yoked”?
You said, ” I find it hard to believe that this 35-year-old, never-married woman’s pre-ordained destiny is a divorced man darn near 50 years old… “
Me too. I’m just disgusted at how the AA church (and mosque) serve up BW for exploitation. And then call this “God’s will.” Somehow, God doesn’t will that type of bs for any other ethnic group or race of women in the US!
THE OBVIOUS, COMMON-SENSE SOLUTION IS FOR MORE AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN TO MARRY OUT—SPECIFICALLY TO WHITE MEN. WE NEED TO STOP MINCING WORDS ABOUT THIS.
A reader named Monique said,
I totally cosign onto this post and several of the comments written thus far. I believe that the “Good Black Man” moniker is an oxymoron; truly decent, good black men of character simply do not exist. There may be a few who do right by their own woman or child, but the vast majority do not check, condemn or reign in the outrageous behavior of the Ray Rays and Pookies within the defunct BC. Therefore, those BM who claim to be “good” still are not acting in a protective role for the masses of BW and Black children, they are only taking care (albeit minimally) their own.
Additionally, your comment about BM measuring themselves against the lowest common denominator (i.e., the pookies and thugs) instead of functioning, healthy men in the global village has always baffled me. Indeed it’s baffling to me that most AA choose to emulate utter foolishness and pass it off as “culture.” It appears to me that BM simply do not want to do better, they simply do not want to put in the work to make themselves competitive in this world. It is apparent from their actions that being nothing more than entertainers (coons are more apropos), athletes, “rappers” and mandingo stud muffins is fine by them.
If BW want a more abundant life, we will HAVE to date and marry quality men from the global village and leave Ray Ray and Pookie to their own demise.
That’s the bottom line. The current cultural protocol is for African-American women to stop short of saying this last part out loud. We can’t afford to keep doing this. We can’t afford to keep coming up with elaborate and unlikely alternative answers all in the name of avoiding the obvious solution of interracial marriage for Black women.
Concerns were raised about the pattern that many online Black conversations take. Specifically the pattern of stopping short, and advocating anything except the common-sense, natural solution of Black women doing what large numbers of Asian women have done to improve their circumstances: marry from among the dominant population—marry White men.
Faith, blog host of Acts of Faith in Love & Life said,
Good points which is why the post, the source material and the insane response in the comment section took the central point into a confused mess. I saw a few distinct caveats though.
1) The idea of the women raising kids alone is a problem.
2) Are all of these abandoned women supposed to remain so?
3) The inevitable conclusion that women must stop limiting themselves by race is not seriously encouraged when we know that is going to be best option and AA women need to date/marry out.
4) There’s still an undercurrent of pain and disappointment expressed and I think hoping for the BM to ‘come to his senses’ so they can all come together.
That “black love” trap! It was why some of the male detractors immediately tried to block the idea of interracial dating for BW.
While I think Von’s conversation was beneficial and may appeal to a certain audience some of the key elements that would address the “conclusion” aspect as BW finally move on to the next phase of their lives (if they want the highest quality) cannot be ignored.
A reader from the UK named Foxy Cleopatra said,
I think Von is spot on with her observations, however, knowing the way several bw choose to think, some may interpret it the wrong way. What I benefit from the example used with the Umoja women is that they saw the situation and got away from all the nonsense and made their lives better on their own terms, irrespective of what ‘their’ men thought of it. There is however, the danger that some silly bw (who constantly lurk on these empowerment sites) may then literally take this to mean that since these so-called ‘good black men’ aren’t really ever going to show up and sweep them off their feet, they should then forget about actually having a quality man in their lives and instead just build communities with themselves and remain single for the rest of their lives.
Yes bw should find like minded pple and form communities but I find it hard to believe that for the masses of black women, marriage is not something that they desire (irrespective of whether or not they already have kids oow or not). In the grand scale of things, bw should forget about this nonsensical IBM fantasy and hedge their bets with finding worthy men in the global village.
In reply to Faith’s comment, I said,
I also noticed the “caveats” you mentioned. That’s why I’ve decided to do a Part 2 to this post. Any plan that revolves around AA women remaining without competent, effective men providers is a bad plan. I see those sorts of ideas as emergency/crisis way stations. Way stations to bridge the gap between being immersed in the radioactive AA scene and transitioning to join the outer, global village.
Focused Purpose, blog host of the Focused Purpose blog said,
. . . it seems that folks are afraid or simply refuse to mention the obvious date out common sense conclusion. or at least call it right out in no uncertain terms. it takes a lot of courage to do this. i know when i was all “power to the people” railing on white folks for their mistreatment of bm, it took a long minute to fix my mouth to call it. and BOY! did it hurt initially. it is the final acknowledgment of the death. honestly, i felt angry with those that were freely proclaiming to the world that all was lost. . .
In reply, I said,
I agree. I felt the same way in the past. I now realize that I was still looking at the situation through the distorting lens of the AA cultural Oppositional Defiant Disorder that we have going in terms of Whites. In order for AA women and girls to survive and thrive, we MUST drop this Oppositional Defiant Disorder attitude toward WM. AA women must learn how to comfortably socialize in the global village.
IF AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN WANT TO HAVE A REASONABLE OPPORTUNITY FOR WHOLESOME MARRIAGE, WE’RE GOING TO HAVE TO DROP OUR KNEE-JERK GRUDGE AGAINST WHITE MEN
When the sorts of conversations like the one from Von’s blog occur, the most many participants will concede is that perhaps . . . just maybe . . . African-American women should kinda, sorta think about dating and marrying non-African-American Black men, and other men of color. That’s a false solution for a number of reasons. First of all, many men of color are just as colorist and downright racist as African-American men. I made the following reply comment at another blog about the patterns I’ve observed,
I would say that it’s not either/or, it’s both/and.
On the one hand, everything else being roughly equal (the woman’s comportment, looks, etc.) BW are “held to a different standard than white and Asian women and men do not put as much energy into pursuing us.” That’s just reality at this point. BW can either deal with it and keep moving forward; or give up.
On the other hand, NO other ethnic group of women other than African-American women are running around publicly and loudly declaring that they would never date outside their race. Other women also haven’t bought into the Sista Soldiering, lack of femininity, “mean mug” facial expressions, etc. on a massive scale like AA women.
Most of the BW bloggers that I’m aware of who support BWIR have talked about ALL of these variables. For example, Evia has talked about the overall social reality that quality WM are in a position to be able to pick from a wide range of women. So WM have no incentive to chase after unapproachable-acting BW. She’s also emphasized that there are numerically more WM in the US than other types of men. Halima has, on more than one occasion, emphasized the current generation of adult BW will have to face the extra hurdles of being trailblazers in terms of IR marriage.
For my part, I’ve repeatedly told AA women to stop assuming that there’s automatically some Kumbaya thing in operation with other people of color. In the employment context, I’ve repeatedly said that AAs are more likely to be hired by White “gatekeepers” than other POC gatekeepers.
I believe the same overall pattern applies to AA women and IR marriage context. The marriage odds are better for AA women and WM than with other men of color. Among the various categories of WM, the marriage odds are better for AA women with European-born WM as opposed to American-born WM. However, even in terms of American WM, I’ve noticed a significant change in the past 20-25 years. More American WM are willing to approach BW for dating than they were 2 decades ago. Before, WM would look at and notice BW, but it was rare for them to approach BW and ask them out for a date.
Other people of color tend to be as racist and colorstruck as AA males. Some of these cultures are racist and colorstruck among themselves. South Asians (East Indians and Pakistanis) are extremely bad with this even among themselves. Skin color is one of the features they prominently mention in the marriage ads they place in their own publications. I’ve seen them do this on a routine basis in ads in immigrant Muslim publications. Since these people do this among themselves, they’re really not into the idea of courting and marrying BW.
In terms of seeking a quality husband among other men of color, a BW has the worst overall odds with Asian men. What I’ve seen of East Asians up close (I’m speaking of mostly Koreans, but also some Chinese and Japanese) is that they are xenophobic among themselves. Folks’ parents from these 3 nationalities will react badly when their child marries an Asian person from one of the other 2 groups. Even though Asians from these 3 groups look very similar to each other in terms of features and complexions. [Unlike Thais, Filipinos and others who are often much darker.] So again, if these people are acting like this among themselves, then no—they’re not really looking to marry BW.
I’m speaking in generalities. There are always individual outliers among any group of people. To sum up, the odds a darker-skinned, West African-featured, IR-dating BW finding a quality husband are much better with WM than with men of color.
Unless an individual BW really has a thing for Asian men, I would not recommend that marriage-minded BW invest much time or energy into trying to date Asian men. The odds of that panning out into marriage are low.
Foxy Cleopatra had this to say from the UK (if I remember correctly, she’s African—she can correct me if I’m wrong :-)),
To the second part of my comment, there are some observations I have made concerning a lot of ‘formerly black nationalist’ bw and I think the earlier this issue is addressed, the better. Some of these women still maintain a lot of the black love fantasies and so in advising AA women to date out, tell them to date other non-AA bm. I believe that this is very very risky for several reasons which I will outline in my next comment.
. . . The reasons are as follows:
1. For any black woman living in the US, your best options for dating out are wm. That is just a fact. Whether it has to do with numbers, availability, access etc.
2. For non-AA bm, I will address Caribbean-origin bm and African bm separately. For Caribbean bm, it is an absolute and bold faced LIE that their mating habits are any different from that of AA males. For those of them residing in the Caribbean, the ‘white is right’ mentality is, dare I say even more blatantly exhibited. The MAIN reason why the IR rate among them may seem lower is because as a proportion, black pple there are more than in the US and non-blacks are less, so therefore, there is less of an opportunity. Also, a lot of the black men one sees in America that may just be assumed to be AA are actually of Caribbean origin. So a lot of these dbrbm are themselves non-AA.
3. Looking at Black Caribbean British males, their abandonment of ‘their’ women is even more dire! Forget about their dating habits, the good proportion of them do not even want bw anywhere in their surroundings. The same nonsense (black on black crime, high prison population, low educational achievement etc) exists among black males here in the UK. The prevalence of rape against women (of various races) residing in predominantly black areas is shocking and even more disgusting is the black ‘communities’ reaction towards it. These gang rapes are most generally committed by black and mixed race males (of both Caribbean and African origin).
4. As for African men, where do I even start. I think this is the most dangerous situation because of the very high number of ‘boardroom thugs’/’ray-rays in a suit’ that a lot of AA women will fall for it. Let me break it down. A lot of AA women see several successful African men choosing to marry bw and begin to cheer them. However, one needs to understand the way a lot of these men think. I cannot count the number of times that I have heard an African man say that if he didn’t marry a woman from his country or another African woman, he may as well just marry a non-black woman.
Most of the African men I know who are married to women who are not from their home country or another African country are married to white women from the eastern bloc (of European countries) or to Asian women from developing countries. For some reason, a lot of these African men have gotten this notion that they have this stream of AA women waiting for them and are more than willing to take advantage of it, and unfortunately, i am seeing several AA women falling for it!
Don’t get me wrong, there are several good African men but most of those you see in the west (and so will meet) do not take long to develop these same pathetic mentalities themselves. The only thing I have noticed is that they are not as vocal as say AA and Caribbean men but once you actually begin to engage in conversation with a lot (and to be honest most) of them, you will be utterly disgusted at the kinds of things you hear.
I think the issue is that just because these males may take care of their kids and get married on a much more frequent scale than AA males, some women would refer to them as being ‘good/desirable/catches’. If these men were en masse, so responsible, lets keep it real, the African continent would not be in the state it presently is in right now. As much as I didn’t like it the first time I heard it, I have to be honest and agree with Evia, by and large, bm the world over are a conquered men.
All of the above is the second reason this “maybe it’s okay for African-American women to expand their dating pool only large enough to also include other men of color” suggestion is a false solution. By eliminating quality White men from their marriage pool, African-American women are eliminating the largest group of men in the US! And eliminating the group of nonblack men who are most likely to marry Black women! How crazy and self-defeating is that?
Bottom line: If we’re serious about wanting a reasonable chance for (a wholesome) marriage—and if we want the same thing for our daughters—then we’ll have to include American White men in our dating and marriage pool. We’re also going to have to drop some of our habitual cultural mindsets. Starting with the knee-jerk oppositional stance many of us take with White men. I said,
. . . Sadly, “Saigon” has fallen. At this point, there’s not much other than suffering and death for BW within the AA collective and its social environments.
So, we need to send our Black girls out into the outer nonblack global village to find their future husbands. This means we need to groom and orient the Black girls and young BW in our lives toward entry into the outer society. AA girls and women know how to work in the outer world. But they haven’t been raised to successfully socialize in the outer world. AA women have been programmed to shun socializing in the outer world. This must change if we want the AA girls who come behind us to have fulfilling lives.
For many of us, this means dropping the cultural Oppositional Defiant Disorder-type of attitude that many AAs automatically take toward the outer, nonblack—especially White—world.
“Saigon” (what used to be a semi-functioning AA community) has been completely overrun by deranged, destructive new-school AA mutants. It’s gone. It won’t be coming back. Those of us who are survivors are going to have to adapt to life in the outer world. This means dropping a lot of the knee-jerk oppositional, and anti-White attitudes that made sense during earlier eras, but now only serve to keep AA women imprisoned in all-AA social and physical hell pits.
African-American women are the only group of people on this planet who worry about “Black love” to their own detriment. Black men have never let “Black love” or any other ideology stop them from dating and marrying White or other nonblack women. Overall, Black men have not reciprocated Black women’s sense of obligation to the Black community. Judging from outward actions and words, most Black men are not concerned about building Black marriages and Black families. Only Black women seem to be preoccupied with “Black love” and “the Black family.”
Were the following (and countless other) Black men worried about “Black love”?
Amiri Baraka, Charles Barkley, Harry Belafonte, Billy Blanks, Julian Bond, Taye Diggs, Father Divine, Frederick Douglass, Julius Erving (Dr. J), Frantz Fanon, Marvin Gaye, Cuba Gooding, Jr., Gregory Hines, Rick James, James Earl Jones, Quincy Jones, Van Jones, Reginald Lewis, Thurgood Marshall, Major Owens, Sidney Poitier, Adam Clayton Powell, Prince, Richard Pryor, Lou Rawls, Lionel Richie, Dennis Rodman, Seal, Russell Simmons, O.J. Simpson, Wesley Snipes, Clarence Thomas, Melvin Van Peebles, Ben Vereen, Herschel Walker, Walter White, John Edgar Wideman, Billy Dee Williams, Montel Williams.
No, these Black men (and many others) didn’t let worries about “Black love” limit their lives. Since Black men don’t let worries about “Black love” stop them from doing whatever is best for themselves, there is no sense in so many African-American women worrying about “Black love” to their detriment. In fact, to do so is foolish. This behavior by African-American women is uniquely foolish.
Other women of color, including African women, have never limited their marriage options out of a misguided and unreciprocated sense of loyalty. African-American women are the only women of color who go around publicly saying that they won’t date outside their race. No other group of women on this planet engages in this behavior. Not African women. Not Latina women. Not Asian women. Not Arab women.
African-American women are alone on this planet in foolishly limiting their marriage options.
Any African-American woman who is serious about optimizing her lifestyle to include marriage is going to have to start focusing on quality instead of race and ethnicity.
*Audience Note* I learned so much from mostly listening during Part 1, that I’m going to do the same here. Please feel free to talk among yourselves.