A Recommendation For Gentlemen Readers—The Art Of Manliness

I frequently get emails from gentlemen readers asking if I know of any Black men’s blogs that cover similar topics—from a Black man’s perspective—as those covered here. Unfortunately, I’m not aware of any similar blogs by and for African-American men. This is a problem with African-American blogs in general. Far too many Black blogs are devoted either to foolishness or empty venting that goes nowhere.

So, I’ve been left with suggesting that gentlemen readers look into the nonblack blogs that cover their specific areas of interest. I hadn’t run across a full-spectrum blog for men that covered all aspects of having a good life. Until recently, when I ran across The Art Of Manliness: Reviving The Lost Art of Manliness. From the “About” page to The Art of Manliness,

The Art of Manliness is authored by husband and wife team, Brett and Kate McKay. It features articles on helping men be better husbands, better fathers, and better men. In our search to uncover the lost art of manliness, we’ll look to the past to find examples of manliness in action. We’ll analyze the lives of great men who knew what it meant to “man up” and hopefully learn from them. And we’ll talk about the skills, manners, and principles that every man should know. Since beginning in January 2008, The Art of Manliness has already gained 75,000+ subscribers and continues to grow each week.

Why the Art of Manliness?
My idea for the Art of Manliness came about as I was standing in Borders bookstore looking at the men’s magazines. It seemed to me that the content in these magazines were continually going downhill, with more and more articles about sex and how to get six pack abs. Was this all there was to being a man?

And as I looked around at the men my age, it seemed to me that many were shirking responsibility and refusing to grow up. They had lost the confidence, focus, skills, and virtues that men of the past had embodied and were a little lost. The feminism movement did some great things, but it also made men confused about their role and no longer proud of the virtues of manliness. This, coupled with the fact that many men were raised without the influence of a good father, has left a generation adrift as to what it means to be an honorable, well-rounded man.

Talking about honorable manliness was to me a niche seemingly not covered on the web or elsewhere, and I decided to start The Art of Manliness to talk about all things manly- both the serious and the fun, but with the ultimate eye toward encouraging readers to be better husbands, fathers, brothers, men.

Gentlemen, I humbly suggest that you check it out! [I might just make this a semi-regular feature if I come across other blogs that are of special interest to the 21st century gentleman.]

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78 Responses to “A Recommendation For Gentlemen Readers—The Art Of Manliness”

  1. Rhonda says:

    If you don’t mind, Khadija, I’d like to “second” your recommendation of this site. I subscribe to it in my reader; although, it is for men and I am not one, I’ve learned quite a bit from the posts there. Also, I’ve recommended it to every man I know. There is a thorough, and entertaining, post on How To Do A Push Up. The entertaining part? Well, they included many videos of many variations on doing the push-up. I especially like the one of Bruce Lee doing a one-handed, two-fingers push up (That man is amazing! A perfect physical specimen. I am a Bruce Lee fan; love his movies — the fight scenes, especially.)

  2. K. Michel says:

    “I frequently get emails from gentlemen readers asking if I know of any Black men’s blogs that cover similar topics—from a Black man’s perspective—as those covered here.” – Khadija

    I’ve visited your site a while ago, Khadija, (not sure if you remember me) and honestly, I think it does have a lot to offer African-American men with regards to advice… even if it isn’t tailored to and for African-American men. When you told me about your past, I had so much respect for it that I decided to put my emotions aside and listen to what you had to say on other posts you’ve made. I don’t (usually) get offended at what you say because I understand the context you say it in. I can admit that I have much to learn from you.

    On that note, I’ll give “The Art of Manliness” a chance. It couldn’t hurt.

    Have a nice day, Khadija.

  3. ravengal says:

    Excellent recommendation! Dh and I listen to the podcast also.

  4. Rhonda,

    You said, “If you don’t mind, Khadija, I’d like to “second” your recommendation of this site. I subscribe to it in my reader; although, it is for men and I am not one, I’ve learned quite a bit from the posts there.”

    I don’t mind at all. 🙂 I’ve also learned a lot from what I’ve been reading over there; even though I’m not part of its target demographic. Most material “worth its salt” has applications that go beyond its primary target audience.

    You said, “is a thorough, and entertaining, post on How To Do A Push Up. The entertaining part? Well, they included many videos of many variations on doing the push-up. I especially like the one of Bruce Lee doing a one-handed, two-fingers push up (That man is amazing! A perfect physical specimen. I am a Bruce Lee fan; love his movies — the fight scenes, especially.)”

    I’ll have to look for that video! {smile}
    ____________________________________________

    K.Michel,

    Oh yes, I remember you from a while back. Like I said earlier, most worthwhile content has applications that go beyond its immediate target audience. That said, there are some uniquely dysfunctional things going on among the AA collective that really need some examination and problem-solving. Because we’re literally at the end of the road as a collective, and sinking further into permanent underclass status each day.

    So, I would hope to see more AA blogs—by writers from various sub-demographics within our group (more straight women and men, gays and lesbians, disabled women and men, etc.)—covering the sorts of topics that I cover here.
    ____________________________________________

    Ravengal,

    I haven’t gotten around to checking out the videos; I’ve been lost in browsing and reading through the blog posts.

    Expect Success!

  5. Karen says:

    Thank you Khadija for the link! There is always something to be learned.

  6. Lorie says:

    I like to read blogs geared toward quality men, as they often touch upon how decent men should treat ladies. There are some signs of respect that I didn’t know I should expect when I was a teenager- probably because I’d been exposed to men who were not gentlemen.

  7. Liza207 says:

    Hi Khadija,

    I’m so glad that you recommended this site. I think that a lot of BW can benefit from knowing this information. It appears that many BW have not been exposed to men who know how to be real gentlemen or know how to treat women. It seems that some of us need to be educated/reeducated on how to distinguish the real men from the boys, putting it frankly. When a woman is with a real man she should always feel safe/protected, feminine/girly because that’s the way he is supposed to make her feel, at all times. No exceptions.

  8. Karen,

    You’re welcome!
    ______________________________

    Lorie and Liza207,

    Yes, a side benefit for AA women readers is that reading The Art of Manliness gives them a chance to eavesdrop on the conversations taking place among normal, healthy men. Unfortunately, too many AA women weren’t blessed like I was to grow up around normal, healthy men. So, their expectations for men’s behavior are off-kilter and set very, VERY low. The BM that many BW think are “good BM” are usually not good at all. It’s a similar dynamic to what a number of White feminists have referred to as “Nice Guys™.”

    “Nice Guys™”: The “™” marks the difference between men who are genuinely nice people and men with entitlement issues who wail “but I’m a nice guy!”. There are two types, which often overlap in one individual:

    ■ a guy who believes that the simple act of being decent means that the universe owes him a girlfriend.[defn from Mickle][more from Jeff Fecke at Shakesville]

    ■ men who are looking to date a woman with the appearance of a supermodel, and yet they continually whine about how “women don’t like nice guys – they only want good-looking a**holes” [/source] [more at the NiceGuy archive at Heartless B*tches International]

    http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/04/17/faq-what-do-you-mean-by-not-my-nigel-feminist-abbreviationsjargon/

    Also see the various essays at the following site,

    All too often we hear self-professed “Nice Guys” complaining about why they can’t get a date, and whining that women just want to date jerks, etc. etc. The truth of the matter is that there are genuinely caring, compassionate, decent, fun guys out there who have NO TROUBLE meeting people, getting dates, and having relationships.

    Unfortunately, many of the guys who DO have trouble, insist that women don’t want them because they are “too Nice”. These people who call themselves “Nice Guys” can’t see that THEIR OWN behavior is the problem. That behavior either drives women away or attracts the WORST kind of predator – one who is manipulative and self-serving. Whether it is targeting women who are troubled to begin with, setting themselves up to be taken advantage of, or acting in a manipulative, patronizing or obsequious fashion, these guys sabotage themselves and often blame “all women” for their misfortunes.

    This section is devoted to the guys who suffer from that self-professed “Nice Guy” affliction. Here is the place to find out why YOUR behavior isn’t as “Nice” as you think it is…

    Required Reading:

    http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml

    Anyhoo, when I think about the endless downpour of deranged statements from some BM that so many BW are taking in, I shudder. Constantly listening to madness serves to normalize insanity. One example of this are the legions of women-haters that like to comment over at The Field Negro’s blog. The Field Negro blog host himself seems like a normal, healthy guy, but he doesn’t moderate his comment section. And so his comment section is jam-packed with dueling vitriol from various lunatics.

    Expect Success!

  9. K. Michel says:

    “When a woman is with a real man she should always feel safe/protected, feminine/girly because that’s the way he is supposed to make her feel, at all times. No exceptions.” – Liza207

    In a post-feminism movement society, wouldn’t this pose a problem? To play “advocate” here, a woman should feel those ways about herself (feminine, safe, etc.) prior to meeting any man… and furthermore, be allowed to have and express whatever traits she wishes.

    This comment has me thinking. Of course, what Liza says is understandable and I get what she’s communicating. However, does it also work for men? For instance, is it a woman’s role to make her man feel masculine and important? Or should he come into that on his own?

    • ARLYNE says:

      Yes, making the man feel masculine and important is a smart thing for a woman to do. A smart, healthy woman will enjoy making her man feel good about himself. I feel showing respect to your man should be something you want to do. Why would you “choose” a man that you can not respect? Choosing wisely and treating kindly is a good formula for a successful relationship.

  10. K.Michel,

    Liza207 can speak for herself, but in the meanwhile I have my own thoughts in response to your comment/question.

    You said, “In a post-feminism movement society, wouldn’t this pose a problem? To play “advocate” here, a woman should feel those ways about herself (feminine, safe, etc.) prior to meeting any man… and furthermore, be allowed to have and express whatever traits she wishes.”

    What Liza is expressing in her comment is the way that many women feel in the presence of a man—her man—who is PROTECTING and PROVIDING for her. It’s not complicated; but let me give some concrete examples. In the presence of a protective and providing man, a woman knows:

    1-That she doesn’t have to figure everything out. And if she doesn’t want to do so, she doesn’t have to figure anything out. Because her man has a sensible plan already in mind. This extends from the trivial (what to do and where to go on the outing). To the semi-serious (vacation planning). To the totally serious (scouting out houses and neighborhoods for relocation). Most women I’ve known enjoy NOT having to figure everything (or even anything) out. Even though a woman can be quite competent in figuring things and making arrangements, it’s relaxing to NOT have to be bothered with all of that.

    It’s nice to simply be a “passenger” who’s enjoying the scenery and the ride. But this only works right when the “driver” has already demonstrated that he knows what he’s doing; AND that he’s not going to abuse being entrusted with “driving the bus” (by going places that he knows you don’t want to go). Nobody in their right mind will let somebody else drive them off a cliff.

    2-That he will do everything in his power to keep her safe. Again, this ranges from relatively smaller things (he will protect her honor and privacy by not blabbing her business).

    To the bigger things. If married, he will do everything he can to make sure that she is living a comfortable lifestyle—at minimum, as well as she was living before she married him. And, preferably, better than her previous standard of living. As I’ve heard a number of “old-school” AA men put it, the woman is really supposed to get some type of “come up” (even if it’s a small one) from being with you.

    To the ultimate life-and-death sort of things. The woman should know—without being having to be told—that any physical attacker would have to get through the man in order to get at her or their children. Not the “New Jack City” manuever of using women and children as human shields. Not the modern “runs without looking to see what’s happening with his date” male. Not the modern “I don’t know what to do” male who’s stands around confused when some other male verbally assaults the woman he’s with; or when some other mess breaks out. [At minimum, quickly get the woman safely away from the predator/problem.]

    And the local E2 disaster in Chicago was a perfect example of NON-protective, new-school AA males. I recall noticing during the tv news reports from outside the nightclub that it was the physically largest AA males who were wedged in the doors—they had trampled over other people (including stepping over, one might assume, their dates for the night to get to the doors).

    Let me mention a disturbing trend about modern BM and the above life-and-death scenarios. I can count on less than one hand (and this includes my ex) the number of modern BM who have taken the time to think through what they would do if some life-and-death emergency situation breaks out while they’re with their lady. I also notice that many modern BM do not appear to be paying attention to the physical environment and who’s in it while they’re out with their ladies.

    One of the benefits of working with a lot of cops and prison guards over the years is that I’ve learned how to notice who’s quietly scanning the environment. Cops and prison guards know how to pay close attention to what’s going on around them in the environment without obviously looking like they’re watching. They also know how do do this while holding totally unrelated conversations, etc.

    I’m not saying that anybody should be paranoid. But, a PROTECTIVE man is as quietly and unobtrusively observant as most cops. Old-school BM and modern BM who were raised by old-school BM are quietly vigilant like most cops when their women and children are around. I feel a lot safer with men like that around.

    Expect Success!

  11. lafemmenoir says:

    I’ve on read few articles so far Where Is the Grass Greener? The Economics of Happiness, The Art of Conversation &
    30 Days to a Better Man Day 17: Talk to 3 Strangers. The posts are well written and offer a wealth of information on varied topics.

    Nice Guys

    I absolutely LOVE nice guys, as a matter-of-fact, I won’t date a guy unless I am sure that he is a nice guy (I am also partial to Nerds, but that is a topic for another day). I have read a few of the articles/posts over at HBI and I have to say that I just don’t get the animus that society seems to have against nice guys or Beta’s, as Roissey in DC likes to refer to them as (Roissey is a piece of work let me tell you so if you do look him up, be prepared for a few gasps). Perhaps because my dad was a nice guy, at least in my opinion, but I have a soft spot for them. I like how they go out of their way to do sweet things for me and are kind and considerate and put my needs before theirs, knowing that if I am happy that I would reciprocate. Most nice guys that I know, take pride in being men, but more, in pleasing the woman that they are with.

    Fakers

    Now to change gears a bit, I must say that most guys who call themselves a “nice guy” probably aren’t. I have run into many a self-professed nice guy, only to discover that they are “nothing nice”, ok? This has become a “brand” if you will that toxic men like to wrap themselves in to appear more “human” or “human-like”, in hopes of getting a woman to let her guard down. It has worked in the past for the real “nice guys” and other males have seen the results/success and decided to employ their nice guy “tactic” to score. This is where the problem comes in.
    Women are so desperate for a “nice guy” that they take his word or the word of his “friends” as truth and don’t properly investigate/vet this man before allowing him into her life. By the time she figures out that he’s only “human-like”, it’s already too late and he has released his dysfunction into her life. Now, still p*ssed from the deception, she finds another guy, who actually is a real-life good guy, but because she was dumped on, she wants to repay the favor to “man”kind. You can see where this can lead to right?

    Captain save ’em

    Now, we also know the good guy who “just wants to help”, right? It appears that he is always looking for or committing to a “damsel in distress,” right? And it NEVER turns out good for him, never. But isn’t that what men are supposed to do/be? So why does it go so wrong? Well, in my opinion, and in the words of “love guru” Patti Sanger, his picker is off. He desires a woman that he can help/mend, but what he ends up getting is a woman who is DBR. He went in cape flapping in the wind and met beautiful walking/talking kryptonite! Is it his fault? Absolutely! Just like women, men need to learn to vet as well, but not in the same way as women. Although, I must say that I do feel sorry ( a little bit) for good guys when they don’t pick correctly.

    Black Women SheRa’s* and good guys

    To start, from what I have read and from what I have observed and experienced, many black women have never run into a real life good guy, but have instead been surrounded by DeQuandis-types (human-like), so I think that if they were to meet a good guy, they might scare him away or, not knowing what to do with him, treat him like she would DeQuandis. How would this work with a non-black male?

    Case in point- I introduced a female friend of mine to a nice asian guy that I knew who I THOUGHT would be a decent match for her and because she kept saying that she wanted to date a non-black guy for a change. I know this woman very well and I have never witnessed any Shaniqua-like tendencies and I have always admired the way that she carried herself. The introduction was made and they went on a few dates and after a few weeks I decided to check in with her first to see how things were going. Well in her opinion, he wasn’t masculine enough for her. She wasn’t able to put her finger on what it was, but to her, there was “something manly missing about him”… Really? The guy was tall 6 ft and he wasn’t thin like some asian males can be (some), he was what I would call athletic. He was physically attractive, smart, and employed. He was also an extrovert like her. What was his take on her? Guess, no really, I want you to guess. LOL!
    All men are not the same and we can’t expect them to behave the same, just like they shouldn’t expect us to behave the same way either. Just saying.

    Too many women have mentally normalized the uber-aggressive behavior that BM have been exhibiting for the last 30 years and use this as a standard for which to gauge other men. It is a “sub”standard that you are comparing them to, nothing more.

    Needless to say I apologized to him for the setup, and he was ok about it. Apparently he’d dated a white female who was pretty similar in personality and behavior. Good for me.

    Double-standards and WW
    His comments made me think about what one of my WM Facebook friend’s posted on his page a few weeks ago about WM and non-white women. He stated that WW had become too masculine and no longer desired to be women, but that they actually wanted to replace men. He went on to state that non-white women knew how to maintain relationships and appreciated being women. He stated that most WW wanted things both ways and were unwilling to compromise. Sort of like here: http://artofmanliness.com/2009/12/20/what-can-manly-men-expect-of-women/

    The author writes:
    “But these days a new double standard has emerged where it’s okay to celebrate men manning up, but telling women they need to recover some of their femininity is offensive. To wit:

    A woman telling a man to stop looking like a slob and dress up. Awesome!

    A man telling a woman to stop looking like a slob and take care of herself. Sexist!

    Saying that men should stop hooking up with women. Awesome!

    Saying that women should stop sleeping around. Sexist!

    Saying that men should get off the couch and go to work. Awesome!

    Saying that a woman should be nurturing with kids. Sexist!

    Saying that men should take the initiative in relationships. Awesome!

    Saying that a woman should let the man lead (ever!). Sexist!”

    I say, as black women we have never had this double-standard privilege as we were always the workhorses who seldom got the opportunity to behave like spoiled little children, so I feel no pity for them, and I am unapologetic about my feelings.

    The author of the blog post went on to say, “women have historically been put on a pedestal, as the protectors of morality, while men have been disparaged as being baser in their nature.” Well we know that they are talking about WW here, right? BW up until recently been historically known/portrayed as Mammies or Sapphire/Jezebel, never pure, just sexless or whores, no in-between. This is not to rehash some old sentiments, just to point out this fact.

    Represent!

    I was raised by “old-school” parents who were from the south. One of the things that they instilled in me is that people are always watching what you do (and wear, and eat, and…) and that whether you want the responsibility or not, you are a representative for all black people. Well, I know this to be true based on my work experiences in the public and private sector.

    I said all of that to say this- We can flip this to our advantage. Strategize, ladies, strategize.

    First, learn to become and behave (both) more feminine/femininely.

    Second, learn to network and share resources/opportunities with like minded BW. If he doesn’t work for you, he might work for a sister-friend. Share.

    Third, always be on the lookout for an “in”. That is, always be looking for an introduction point and be prepared for an impromptu introduction. I had one last week at the grocery store and almost missed out on an opportunity to meet someone new because I was occupied with trying to get a different product and didn’t notice that he’d followed me to 3 different sections of the isle. Which leads me to the next item…

    Fourth, smile. This is something Christelyn Karazin mentioned a while back on her blog. Black women are so used to having to have tough exteriors to deal with the predators that we sometimes forget to smile. It doesn’t cost anything to smile… Practice it in the mirror until you get one that you feel comfortable with and yes, I am serious about practicing your smile. I have a Mona Lisa smile that I use.

    Fifth, become more pleasant. You never know when opportunity might come knocking and an acerbic personality is a turn-off for most people, unless you are Oscar the Grouch on Sesame Street, and who wants a man who lives in a garbage can, right?

    Sixth, dress to impress. OK, don’t go out and spend a kabillion zillion dollars on clothes, but do make sure that whenever you go outdoors you look Tony-the-tiger GREAT! You never know when you might meet someone and please don’t say that he should like you for who you are because you know that if he looked homeless you would not give him the time of day.

    Seventh, get a hobby, learn a new language (the internet is an invaluable too and so are smart phone apps), take a class on something foreign to you (sewing perhaps?), visit a museum (most have “free” days),etc. Develop and invest in you! You can have book smarts, a hot career, nice attire and be as dull as an old razor. In Bob Marley’s words, “Lively yourself up, girl!”

    Just my ramblings and $0.02…

    *SheRa is the sister of HeMan (cartoon) and possess the same strength as HeMan. It is a negative term used to describe masculine women.

    • Lafemmenoir,

      I’ve always adored genuinely nice guys and nerds-with-basic-social-skills (I’ve never been into guys with Asperger’s syndrome). The thing is that, as you noted, most of the men who make a point of calling themselves “nice guys” usually AREN’T.

      About HBI and their “Nice Guys™” rant: I got the feeling that their ire was directed at the self-professed “Nice Guys™” who actually AREN’T “genuinely caring, compassionate, decent,” etc.

      Expect Success!

  12. **Addendum**

    Another…troubling…thing about this new-school, MASS AA male negligence in terms performing a man’s role as protector: At this point, it appears to be only certain limited types of AA men who still automatically understand—and take seriously—their role as protector. Extremely conservative Black men (I’m thinking of my college friend and coworker who went so far as to get a private detective license so he could legally have a gun in Chicago to protect his wife and children). Militant “Mooz-lim” Black men (misspelled as an inside joke, excuse me—{chuckling}). And certain narrow categories of street men.

    Knowing that as a man, one was supposed to PROTECT and PROVIDE for one’s woman and children used to be a commonly-understood thing that required no explanation. This modern confusion is another bitter fruit of mass fatherlessness.

    On another note, all of this has brought back memories of how my Dad had us practice evacuating the house in case of fire when I was small. We also practiced getting in and out of the car quickly (no fooling around for me and my brother) when a code word was given. As a child, I recall being very upset at his repeated command that if he ever told me to run, I was supposed to run, and keep running, and NOT look back to see what was going on with him or Mom. Praise God none of those drills ever had to be used in real life.

    Expect Success!

    • ZooPath says:

      That reminds me of me and my DH. He’s very protective and doesn’t want my walking the dog by myself at night, always carries my bags…that sort of thing. I’m more of the paranoid survivalist and have come up with code words for things like if we’re in a crowd and one of us sees something suspicious and feel the need to evacuate. When I find ideas in my various survival books he’ll go along with it but he doesn’t feel inclined to read them himself.

      • ZooPath,

        If I remember correctly, your husband is Asian. I’ve never gotten the impression that there’s a similar rate of violent crime in Asian-American areas as there is in Black residential areas.

        It’s NOT like most other nonblack men grow up in the shadow of:

        1-gunplay at the nightclubs they frequent, or

        2-gunplay at movies they see (remember the rash of shootings by Black males at the “in the hood” flicks in the 90s), or

        3-armed robberies in their neighborhoods, or

        4-drive-by shootings in their neighborhoods.

        Here’s my thing about modern NON-vigilant, NON-protective BM: These are men who grew up in—and continue to live in—physically dangerous Black residential environments where these things happen on a semi-regular basis!

        How does a (AA) male grow up with ALL of the above going on and NOT have a plan for safety issues regarding his woman and/or children? What’s that about?!

        Expect Success!

        • Karen R. says:

          Although it is not really funny, I had to chuckle at item #2 in your list. I had a flashback to when the Eddie Murphy movie Harlem NIghts came out. Folks at a theater right outside Detroit were in the theater shooting at the screen!!! (I wasn’t there, thank God).

          You said…”How does a (AA) male grow up with ALL of the above going on and NOT have a plan for safety issues regarding his woman and/or children? What’s that about?!”

          I think for some AA males that stuff is normal. For others, they are the perpetrators.

          • KarenR.,

            Guurl, that’s crazy. I can’t understand the type of male who would leave his woman and/or children “up for grabs.” {shaking my head}

            Expect Success!

        • ZooPath says:

          Yes, you remember correctly, he’s 1.5 gen Chinese American. And yes, unless it’s one of those rare times where the Chinese mafia/Triad has taken over, Asian American communities generally do not have gunplay. As to why non-protective AA men are the way they are, I subscribe to Kola Boof’d belief that they don’t value their own image. If you hate yourself, you’re not going to protect that which creates more of you.

  13. Liza207 says:

    Hi K. Michel,

    Yes, I know that hardcore feminist (usually WW) would not agree with or approve of what I said about needing/expecting protection from a man. But I’m not concerned with what they think. Like Khadija and lafemmenoir mentioned, WW have always had the luxury of being protected and provided for by their men. Over the years, I have seen many WW (whom in which I have worked with) who would immediately abandon their prestigious careers the moment they found a man (usually WM) who would/could provide for them. Even Gloria Steinem got married a few years ago and her tune has changed (she lost a lot of her credibility with me).

    The Feminist Movement has provided and continues provide great opportunities for women but I love being a woman and I enjoy all the perks that goes along with being a woman (being provided for, protected, wined and dined, treasured, and so on), so if I meet a man who has a problem with that, then he is not the man for me. The end.

    “What Liza is expressing in her comment is the way that many women feel in the presence of a man—her man—who is PROTECTING and PROVIDING for her.”

    Hi Khadija,

    That is exactly what I mean. I have been at the steering wheel of my life for a while now, and at some point, I would like someone else (a very capable man) to take the wheel so that I can just enjoy the ride.

    K. Michel is a BM, right?

  14. K. Michel says:

    What Liza is expressing in her comment is the way that many women feel in the presence of a man—her man—who is PROTECTING and PROVIDING for her. It’s not complicated; but let me give some concrete examples. In the presence of a protective and providing man, a woman knows:

    1-That she doesn’t have to figure everything out. And if she doesn’t want to do so, she doesn’t have to figure anything out.

    2-That he will do everything in his power to keep her safe. – Khadija

    Thank you for your response, Khadija. It was quite good. After reading lafemmenoir’s comment as well (I’m sorry for not quoting it lafemme, it’s too large)… something occurred to me. Character, in the grand scheme of things, doesn’t matter when it comes to men. I know it’s politically correct to say that it matters, but it’s not essential at all.

    So, a drug dealer with those two qualities you’ve mentioned (being an able provider and protector while also being perceived in the same way) is a better man than the nice guy who does not do those things in terms of having a relationship with a woman (even though he stays out of trouble with the law).

    I’m sure you’ve heard the saying that “Black women (mostly African-American) only like thugs”. Well, it isn’t that Black women only like thugs. Perhaps, thugs are the kind of men who generally have these “protect and provide” qualities that these women find so alluring. You can try to knock a thug’s penchant for irresponsibility and violence… but a thug will let his “ma” know that he’s ready to get into it if somebody wants to start something. Even if it means gun-play. Or it can be that thugs are more readily perceived to be that way.

    Often times, thugs have heart. I’m not a thug, but I see it. My cousin’s been called a thug, but I loved him to death. Literally (may he rest in peace). Nice Guys™ however; they have a penchant for cowardice and nagging. In some competitions, you have competitors who win by default. So maybe the other team doesn’t show up or they get disqualified for some reason. This would mean the current team wins “by default”. We all know the phrase. But, no one respects the guys who wins by default …except the guys who win by default.

    So, ultimately, a woman wants a man that she respects. That’s always made sense to me.

    I need a tagline… hmm. I’ll think of something.

    • Karen R. says:

      You said…”Character, in the grand scheme of things, doesn’t matter when it comes to men.”

      Character is ALL that matters. In the grand scheme of things it is a man’s character that obligates him to protect and provide for his wife. He can’t help but act in that way toward his wife and children. It is a part of his very nature and who he is as a man.

      It is understood also that a man for the sake of discussion is one who is legally and gainfully employed. Not sure where you are coming from with the drug dealer comparison. I think most would agree that a drug dealer does not fit into the concept of a “man.”

      The concepts of protection and provision are not wrapped up in urban aggression and potential violence. To protect means that a man doesn’t take his wife or have her living in areas where violence, gunfire, etc. are likely to occur, not because he is afraid, but because he wants to protect. A man won’t have his wife/woman living in an Inner-city hell-hole. He has no time to get into potential gun-play with Pookie and Ray-Ray and does not live, recreate or socialize in areas where anything violent can “jump off.” A man realizes that behavior is not normal and doesn’t want his wife anywhere near that foolishness.

      Provision means that he is financial stable and plans ahead. He makes sure all of her needs are met, most of her wants and a few of her whims. It means that instruments are in place financially such that his wife and children and even his children’s, children are well taken care of in the event of his untimely death.

      Lastly it means that to protect and provide is done out of a sense of honor and duty. He is not looking for a parade to be held in his honor, he is just doing what men do.

      • DeStouet says:

        Excellent, Karen R.! Especially this “The concepts of protection and provision are not wrapped up in urban aggression and potential violence. To protect means that a man doesn’t take his wife or have her living in areas where violence, gunfire, etc. are likely to occur, not because he is afraid, but because he wants to protect. A man won’t have his wife/woman living in an Inner-city hell-hole. He has no time to get into potential gun-play with Pookie and Ray-Ray and does not live, recreate or socialize in areas where anything violent can “jump off.” A man realizes that behavior is not normal and doesn’t want his wife anywhere near that foolishness.”

        The truth as I see it is this: once you are far removed from the “hood” and other urban communities, threats are not so obvious. The danger you face as a woman and mother and human being is more mental. Energy, perhaps? Gunshots become a thing of the past and your future becomes such that you have to think intelligently to get from point A to point B.

        The men I know, whether they are husbands or fathers or single are not going to flat out threaten me…because of where I live. Just by communication alone, and some of the women I associate with, these men will respect me. Carry my groceries and treat me kindly.

        Evia said, “At the same time, if he needs to kiss up to get us out of a dangerous confrontation, I would expect for him to do that because I also wouldn’t feel safe with a husband who tries to act like “Mr. Bad.” Too many “Mr. Bads” are in the cemetery.”

        However we choose to think about a man and the way he gets his family out of a confrontational situation is ultimately up to us. And I’ll leave it at that.

  15. Evia says:

    Khadija, let me just point out that I’ve never liked those self-professed and usually whiny “nice guy” type men because they didn’t seem to know that they need to establish BOUNDARIES with me or other women. So when they would start mouthing off about how they did all kinds of wonderful things for this or that woman and she dumped on them, it made me wonder why the guy didn’t have boundaries in place. It also made me wonder whether he had boundaries with ANYONE? That made me feel unsafe with that type of guy.

    I remember one time before I met Darren, I briefly dated a wm and a bm like this. They both whined about how “nice” they were and how women didn’t appreciate them or had dumped on them. I was at the bm’s house one day, and his ex-girlfriend’s teen son used a key that his mom had given him and came into the house without ringing the doorbell!!!!!! When I questioned this guy as to why this boy didn’t know he had to ring the doorbell, the guy became defensive and said it was no big deal. I pointed out to him that this was disrespectful and the boy should have rung the doorbell. The guy felt that I was making a big deal out of nothing simply because he was too “nice” to stand up to this boy and tell him that he MUST always knock or ring the doorbell before entering a house where other adults might be or even a room that has a shut door.

    The wm also whined about how a ww had taken advantage of him while he was being so “nice.” As he gave me a blow-by-blow account about how she had spent a lot of his money and then dumped him, I knew exactly when he should have established boundaries with her, but he either was too “nice” to do that or didn’t have a clue. I think some men are so scared that the woman won’t let him into her pants or will drop him, so they make assumptions based on their own wishful thinking about the woman and don’t set boundaries.

    Their behavior with these other women told me volumes. Whereas I don’t like physically aggressive or macho chest-beating men, I adore men who know how to establish boundaries so that others will RESPECT him and by extension–ME.

    My husband, Darren, is a soft-spoken man, more intellectual type man, but he has firm boundaries in place with others, including me. This was one reason why I felt safe around his large family right away. I saw how they respected HIS boundaries. I knew that whether they liked me or not, they would respect his boundaries.

    In terms of men planning to keep a woman safe/comfortable, Darren and I got caught in a fierce rainstorm a few weeks ago in the city, and his huge umbrella was ripped up. Well, the other day, he brought home another BIG, strong umbrella and told me that he bought it to get ready for the next rainstorm that we might get caught in. He’s a PLANNER. LOL! This makes me feel safe and secure because I know that even when I’m not thinking about my safety and comfort, he is.

    Also, I’ve mentioned many times that he’s only a couple of inches taller than me, and he has a wiry build, but I believe that in most confrontations with much bigger men, he would manage to keep us safe–BECAUSE he’s a thinker and a PLANNER. At the same time, if he needs to kiss up to get us out of a dangerous confrontation, I would expect for him to do that because I also wouldn’t feel safe with a husband who tries to act like “Mr. Bad.” Too many “Mr. Bads” are in the cemetery.

    • Evia,

      You said, “Khadija, let me just point out that I’ve never liked those self-professed and usually whiny “nice guy” type men because they didn’t seem to know that they need to establish BOUNDARIES with me or other women.”

      I agree. It’s been my observation that this SELF-proclaimed “I’m a nice guy” talk is usually a mask for various toxic things. From entitlement issues to the lack of boundaries issue that you described in your comment.

      You said, “So when they would start mouthing off about how they did all kinds of wonderful things for this or that woman and she dumped on them, it made me wonder why the guy didn’t have boundaries in place. It also made me wonder whether he had boundaries with ANYONE? That made me feel unsafe with that type of guy.”

      As far as I’m concerned, a woman IS unsafe with that type of man. He’s not going to set boundaries to guard her feelings (he’ll allow other people to talk about her like a dog in his presence, etc.). And since somebody like that is not going to protect himself in terms of something as relatively minor as courtesy or basic respect, how could I entrust him with protecting anything else? Including more important things? I wouldn’t.

      You said, “Whereas I don’t like physically aggressive or macho chest-beating men, I adore men who know how to establish boundaries so that others will RESPECT him and by extension–ME.”

      That chest-thumping is usually a sign of inner weakness. Smart, savvy men who set appropriate boundaries at the get-go don’t have to get off into that sort of chest-thumping.

      You said, “This makes me feel safe and secure because I know that even when I’m not thinking about my safety and comfort, he is.”

      I admire that in (real) men. And I’ve learned a lot from the real men that I’ve been blessed to have in my life. When the E2 nightclub disaster I mentioned earlier happened, I thought of a boyfriend I had in college. He was the one who taught me to always be cognizant of where the exits are. Especially in club situations. And to try to stay relatively close to them. And to immediately walk out (and stay out) of clubs that put padlocks any of the exit doors (instead of having some bouncers positioned there).

      You said, “Also, I’ve mentioned many times that he’s only a couple of inches taller than me, and he has a wiry build, but I believe that in most confrontations with much bigger men, he would manage to keep us safe–BECAUSE he’s a thinker and a PLANNER. At the same time, if he needs to kiss up to get us out of a dangerous confrontation, I would expect for him to do that because I also wouldn’t feel safe with a husband who tries to act like “Mr. Bad.” Too many “Mr. Bads” are in the cemetery.”

      Guurl, please. As you know, a small but smart man with a PLAN prevails over a physically large fool. First of all, a smart man does not go to (or bring his woman to) known dangerous environments. Also, a smart man pays attention to his environment. Paying attention usually makes it possible to leave BEFORE anything unpleasant happens.

      Finally, a smart man will do whatever, including kiss up, to get his woman and children AWAY from a dangerous situation. Because the point is to keep his woman and children safe; not posturing over ego.

      A smart man only uses physical conflict as the absolute, very LAST resort—when all other options for getting his woman and children to safety have been closed. There’s an old saying, “It’s foolish to argue with the wise. It’s even more foolish to argue with fools.”

      Expect Success!

  16. **Let me start by dealing with the nonsense first**

    K.Michel,

    I’m not surprised that you provided a “teachable moment.” I was hoping that you wouldn’t veer off into reading your own issues into what was being said; but I wasn’t holding my breath in that hope.

    You had to work overtime…work your fingers to the bone…to get everything that’s been said so far ALL twisted around into your statement, “Character, in the grand scheme of things, doesn’t matter when it comes to men.”

    Let me say what my original, unedited response was to your first statement:

    From your very first questions, you sound like a fatherless man who has never thought to plan for his woman’s (and/or future children’s) physical safety. I had originally said this in my first response, but I deleted that part. I wanted to see what you would ultimately say. Well, now I know.

    On top of sounding like a fatherless man who wasn’t raised to be a protector or provider, you sound angry at the very idea that anybody might expect that from you. With more than a dash of self-professed, fake “Nice Guy™” thrown into the mix. Added with what sounds like your (really quite curious) envy of BM drug dealers and thugs. All in all, you’ve worked very hard to make several amazingly inaccurate distortions about what’s been said so far.

    (1) Why in the world do you assume that BM drug dealers and thugs are “protectors and providers” for their women? Who ever told you that? A drug dealer or thug? Ummm…no, that’s NOT how most AA male drug dealers and thugs I’ve enountered roll.

    As someone who has represented many drug dealers and thugs over the years, you’re making a LOT of false assumptions about the nature of drug dealers and thugs. The BM drug dealer and thug are among the first males who will use women and children as human shields if something breaks out. You didn’t catch the reference to the “New Jack City” maneuver of using women and children as human shields? Drug dealers and thugs are the ones who do that sort of maneuver. Who else could you possibly have thought I was talking about when I said,

    To the ultimate life-and-death sort of things. The woman should know—without being having to be told—that any physical attacker would have to get through the man in order to get at her or their children. Not the “New Jack City” manuever of using women and children as human shields. Not the modern “runs without looking to see what’s happening with his date” male. Not the modern “I don’t know what to do” male who’s stands around confused when some other male verbally assaults the woman he’s with; or when some other mess breaks out. [At minimum, quickly get the woman safely away from the predator/problem.]

    AA male drug dealers and thugs are also prone to be among the first to run off without checking to see what happened to their dates/women. You give BM drug dealers and thugs a lot of credit for “heart” that they generally DON’T have. It’s amazing to see a self-professed “Nice Guy™” praise them so.

    I will also note that my negative impressions of drug dealers and thugs are not new. What I’ve seen of them in my professional life only confirms the extremely negative view I had of them as a teenage girl. And I wasn’t the only teenage AA girl during high school who hated drug dealers and thugs. Most of the other AA girls I knew hated them too…but I guess AA young women like that don’t count…only the Black female knuckleheads who aren’t repulsed by criminals “register” in the minds of self-professed “Nice Guys™” like you.

    (2) You’re also assuming that BM drug dealers and thugs actually provide for their women and children. That’s an interesting assumption that’s NOT borne out by what I saw while doing some rotations—defending men in paternity and child support cases—in Chicago’s child support courtrooms. From what I saw, the bulk of such individuals spend the lion’s share of whatever money flows through their hands on THEMSELVES.

    (3) Who said anything about wanting a man with a “penchant for irresponsibility and violence” or a man who’s prone to gunplay? Sir, that’s YOU saying that. NOBODY ELSE said anything even remotely like that. Let me repeat what I did say:

    (a)I mentioned how men who are protectors think through and PLAN what they might do if something happens when their women and children are around. I said,

    Let me mention a disturbing trend about modern BM and the above life-and-death scenarios. I can count on less than one hand (and this includes my ex) the number of modern BM who have taken the time to think through what they would do if some life-and-death emergency situation breaks out while they’re with their lady.

    (b)I also mentioned planning in terms of fire, and other general emergencies. I said,

    And the local E2 disaster in Chicago was a perfect example of NON-protective, new-school AA males. I recall noticing during the tv news reports from outside the nightclub that it was the physically largest AA males who were wedged in the doors—they had trampled over other people (including stepping over, one might assume, their dates for the night to get to the doors).

    . . . On another note, all of this has brought back memories of how my Dad had us practice evacuating the house in case of fire when I was small. We also practiced getting in and out of the car quickly (no fooling around for me and my brother) when a code word was given.

    (c)I mentioned how men who are protectors pay attention to what’s going on in their physical environment. I said,

    I also notice that many modern BM do not appear to be paying attention to the physical environment and who’s in it while they’re out with their ladies.

    One of the benefits of working with a lot of cops and prison guards over the years is that I’ve learned how to notice who’s quietly scanning the environment. Cops and prison guards know how to pay close attention to what’s going on around them in the environment without obviously looking like they’re watching. They also know how do do this while holding totally unrelated conversations, etc.

    I’m not saying that anybody should be paranoid. But, a PROTECTIVE man is as quietly and unobtrusively observant as most cops. Old-school BM and modern BM who were raised by old-school BM are quietly vigilant like most cops when their women and children are around. I feel a lot safer with men like that around.

    Sir, how in the world did you interpret any of this as referring to drug dealers and thugs? Like I said, you had to work your fingers to the bone to take a reference that compared protective men to POLICE OFFICERS and interpret it as praise of drug dealers and thugs. That was absolutely dishonest on your part.

    (4)I mentioned how a protective man will, at minimum, quickly get the woman AWAY from the predator/problem. NOT stand around confused because he doesn’t know what to do. I said,

    Not the modern “I don’t know what to do” male who’s stands around confused when some other male verbally assaults the woman he’s with; or when some other mess breaks out. [At minimum, quickly get the woman safely away from the predator/problem.]

    Sir, it’s not anybody else’s fault—including the BM drug dealers and thugs you apparently choose to envy—that you haven’t mentally prepared yourself to be a competent protector or provider. NONE of the above descriptions of what protective men do revolves around gunplay. I’d say that at least 90%-plus of the protective behaviors I described above are MENTAL actions; and are the result of a man:

    1-planning,

    2-paying attention (which often prevents one from getting caught in various negative situations in the first place), and

    3-having the conscious desire and intention of being a good protector and provider for his woman and children.

    None of which seems to describe you. You’re more focused on how much you envy and apparently feel inferior to BM drug dealers and thugs—who are equally unprepared to be competent protectors and providers. I wasn’t really thinking about this angle before reading your dishonest comment, but now that I think about it: The majority of the BM I’ve known who are good protectors and providers are genuinely NICE MEN—GENTLEMEN—and FAMILY MEN. Not dishonest, fake “Nice Guys™” with entitlement issues and unresolved high school envy of drug dealers and thugs.

    Sir, I don’t like it when people waste other conversation participants’ time by operating in total bad faith; which is what you’ve done. Based on some of your earlier unpublished comments you’ve submitted here, I was initially hesitant to let you participate in this conversation. But you’ve settled the question for me. You’re not welcome to participate in any of the conversations here.

    **Addendum***
    And before I forget, Lefemmenoir started off her comment by saying,

    I absolutely LOVE nice guys, as a matter-of-fact, I won’t date a guy unless I am sure that he is a nice guy (I am also partial to Nerds, but that is a topic for another day)….Now to change gears a bit, I must say that most guys who call themselves a “nice guy” probably aren’t. I have run into many a self-professed nice guy, only to discover that they are “nothing nice”, ok? This has become a “brand” if you will that toxic men like to wrap themselves in to appear more “human” or “human-like”, in hopes of getting a woman to let her guard down.

    And I started off my reply to her by saying,

    Lafemmenoir,

    I’ve always adored genuinely nice guys and nerds-with-basic-social-skills (I’ve never been into guys with Asperger’s syndrome). The thing is that, as you noted, most of the men who make a point of calling themselves “nice guys” usually AREN’T.

    Being a genuinely nice person involves having good character. That, plus the affection we both stated in favor of nerds leaves NO room for drug dealers and thugs. I’m amazed at how hard you had to work to get this all twisted around into basically the opposite of what we said.

    Good luck, God bless, and Goodbye.

    • Nikita says:

      Khadijah,
      Thank you. I read his response to Liz207 and immediately recognized that he came in with a closed mind and a pre-determined mindset. SOME see bw as women in a real sense. We are not vulnerable. We are not soft. We do not want to be carefree and enjoy ourselves. SOME bm cannot imagine that allowing bw to be carefree, vulnerable etc. could possibly make a man feel like a man and be protective of her due to enjoying that vulnerability and trust- to be willing to provide for her namely because they have never seen a man do this for a woman he loves.

      I became increasingly frustrated with his entire comment but especially his description of thugs in terms of how they deal with women. First off, thugs put women in danger – how does doing THAT protect her? He has an issue with nice guys? He feels like they are losers? Then what kind of guy is he? I wanted to scream as I read and re-read his claptrap nonsense. I hoped you would block him and am greatful that you did. As a matter of fact, I was going to shoot you an e-mail stating that he reminded me of another guy who often comes to BWE sites seemingly as a sheep but always reveals himself over time as a wolf who came to derail the convos. Thank you again for not entertaining or tolerating his nonsense.

    • Karen R. says:

      I can tell immediately if a man has been raised to protect. Whenever I go out to lunch with a male client I will hesitate a little before I take my seat. If he positions himself with his back to the door, I know “uh-oh” he doesn’t know or isn’t thinking about scanning the environment to protect if something crazy jumps of. When a man does, this, I am immediately ill-at-ease with him.

      My husband ALWAYS sits facing the entrance to the door WHENEVER we go out to dinner. My dad ALWAYS did this.

    • Nikita and KarenR.,

      Let’s not waste any more time with—or about—K. Michel. He had—and used up—his opportunity to be allowed to join a conversation here. He chose to use that opportunity to get off into some dishonest foolishness. So, he won’t be allowed back.

      In the big scheme of things, I’m happy he said his dishonest statement in this particular context. It gave me an opportunity to do some “teachable moments.” Let me mention some other points:

      Ladies, if you sense that you’re talking to a (usually fatherless) male who has no clue about what it means to be a protector or provider, you have NO obligation to invest (waste) your time trying to explain that to him.

      It’s not your job to try to explain to him how real MEN act. If he’s reached physical maturity without understanding what MEN do, he’ll probably never understand. And you don’t have time to waste. Let him figure out his own issues. Or not. 🙂

      Expect Success!

    • K. Michel says:

      I assure you, Khadija. I didn’t mean to instigate or belittle you or anyone else in this thread with what I said. I was very surprised at what you said so I re-read my comment. After reading my own post, I can see where it presented itself in a manner that you’re suggesting it’s presented. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I meant what I said, but in a different context.

      My drug dealer/Nice Guy™ comparison just came to me after reading through everything. Everything I said after that, was on my theory. It was absolutely not on the premise of your comments. Not at all, after all, you didn’t say anything like that. I just saw something that made an idea click in my head.

      I’d like to continue to participate in this discussion, if you’ll have me. I feel bad about this; it’s all my fault. The only thing I can do is apologize to you and everyone else here for potentially diverting the conversation away from where it should be. *sigh* Okay, good night.

      • Sir,

        Please be advised that you’re still permanently banned from the conversations here. But I let this final comment through from you on the remote chance that you’re sincere, but confused. [I don’t think so…but, whatever.]

        If you’re sincere, then I would urge you to listen to something other than whatever toxic—and out of touch with human norms—voices have helped form your thinking up to this point.

        As a start, I would urge you to silently start reading “The Art of Manliness,” and listen in to some men’s conversations that are generally MUCH healthier than the madness currently heard from the fatherless masses of AA males.

        Good Luck, God Bless, and Goodbye.

  17. Magenta says:

    I stopped by the site, and it is excellent. I have some acquaintances that mentor black male youths, I will forward the link to them, I think it would be very useful to them.

    At first I was worried because many “men’s blogs” are saturated in pick-up artist talk or are focused primarily on trivial matters such as sports, but the material over there is very practical and useful. It was also nice to see men counseling other men on how to be responsible and treat women with respect. Seeing healthy men interact with one another (even if it is only online)really does help women who have difficulty with vetting men.

  18. Karen says:

    There is not much I can add but to say there is a world of difference between how healthy men interact with each other and how they treat their ladies versus those that have normalized and glorified toxic behaviors<– This group should be avoided at all costs as the life you save could be your own.

  19. Magenta,

    You said, “I stopped by the site, and it is excellent. I have some acquaintances that mentor black male youths, I will forward the link to them, I think it would be very useful to them.”

    Good!

    You said, “At first I was worried because many “men’s blogs” are saturated in pick-up artist talk or are focused primarily on trivial matters such as sports, but the material over there is very practical and useful. It was also nice to see men counseling other men on how to be responsible and treat women with respect.”

    Yep. Most “men’s blogs for men” are . . . downright scary. Similar to how most “men’s” and “women’s” magazines are scary (for a variety of reasons). It was refreshing to see men talking about responsible and healthy manhood over there.

    You said, “Seeing healthy men interact with one another (even if it is only online)really does help women who have difficulty with vetting men.”

    I agree.
    ___________________________________________________

    Karen,

    You said, “There is not much I can add but to say there is a world of difference between how healthy men interact with each other and how they treat their ladies versus those that have normalized and glorified toxic behaviors< – This group should be avoided at all costs as the life you save could be your own."

    ITA.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    **Audience Alert**

    The importance of selecting a man who is a PROTECTOR and PROVIDER also gets back to a number of earlier conversations, including the The First National Tune-Out Neutral, Low-Value, And No-Value Black Men Week. And a post at the previous blog that’s now a chapter in the book, “Let’s Get Serious About Vetting Men, Part 1: Do You Really Want A Fatherless Man To Be The Father Of Your Children?”

    I’ll be blunt:

    Ladies, you need to RUN AWAY as fast as you can when you encounter:

    1-A man who doesn’t automatically understand what “protect” and “provide for” means (no matter how much he tries to intellectualize his confusion about a PRIMAL male duty);

    2-A fatherless man (this is usually the root cause of trait #1);

    3-A man who is a SELF-described “Nice Guy™” (which is usually a ski mask used to hide various toxic traits—if he was genuinely nice, other people would be saying this about him);

    4-A man who is a SELF-described “Good Black Man.™” This is similar to trait #3—again, the men who self-identify this way usually are NOT what they claim to be. In fact, a number of extreme, woman-hating Internet Ike Turners proclaim themselves to be “Good Black Men.™”

    The bottom line is that you need to check for ACTIONS and BEHAVIORS that indicate a man is a genuinely nice man who is a protector and provider. Look for actions. Don’t listen to how he self-describes.

    NOBODY self-describes as a villian—including the men I’ve represented who have allegedly beat and stomped babies into permanent brain damage and also to the point of death. Men like a current (AA male) client I’m thinking of. He self-describes as a “Nice Guy.™” [And no, he’s not a thug, gangbanger or drug dealer.] Everybody’s got sympathy-seeking “reasons” for why they did [fill in the blank].

    When looking for positive traits in a man, look at his actions, not words. The only things words reveal are warnings of bad traits when folks inadvertently tell on themselves with their jacked-up statements.

    Expect Success!

  20. To The Commenter Whose Comment I Deleted A Minute Ago,

    No more (waste of time) conversation about K.Michel. Really, who cares? Let’s continue to move on—and AWAY from—such individuals.

    Expect Success!

  21. Evia says:

    Khadija, I would think that by now there would be a bunch of books out there breaking it down to men that even though a woman may make as much money/more money than her man, the typical woman is still going to purr more with a man who makes her feel safer and more secure. The man shows her that he can do that by doing lots of minor things initially (opening doors, carrying her shopping bags, paying for coffee or a reasonably priced meal, holding the umbrella over her in the rain, etc.) and gradually this builds up into his doing more major things.

    OF COURSE, A woman can do ALL of these things and many more for herself, but he does these things in order to SHOW her that he is willing to do his best to make her feel safe and secure. In return, she smiles at him often. She stands near him and does other little things to let him know she likes his company and appreciates him.

    Some women think they have to sleep with a man simply because he bought them a meal. She thinks he’ll know for sure that she really, really likes him. But that’s like someone giving me a penny and me giving them $10,000.

    Women, in general, are wired to want to be safe and secure just like men, in general, are wired to be sex hunters. In line with that, women, in general, are also wired to want the type of man who can best help them to feather the nest. I realize that some women haven’t accepted that men are sex hunters, but many men also seemingly can’t grasp that women are wired to gravitate toward men who make them feel more safe and secure. That’s our basic wiring that’s been embedded during the last 50,000 years.

    Based on what I’ve read, one of the reasons that some women SEEM to like thugs is because in certainunstable environments, and/or lower income environments and social circles where a woman has been made to feel unsafe and insecure, a thug type man makes a woman feel safer and more secure. Many middle class blacks grew up in lower income, rough environments.

    However, even for a middle class-raised woman or emotionally secure woman, the thug type man may seem more exciting and manly because he doesn’t ask for permission; he asserts himself. As I pointed out in an essay I did a couple of years ago, the thug type man doesn’t ask a woman for a kiss, he darts down or over and kisses her. LOL! He’s unpredictable and this titillates her and keeps her wondering what that rascal (LOL!)is going to do next. That’s more exciting to some women than a man asking her whether it’s okay for him to kiss her.

    So the thug type man is a risk taker and MANY women PREFER men who take sensible risks because underneath the surface, a man is still viewed in a patriarchal world as the LEADER. After all, as the saying goes: “nothing risked, nothing gained,” and a man, as the leader is supposed to be a “GAIN”er and he is expected to compete with other men and bring back his gains to his women and children. Other than that, the woman has to be the “gain”er–the one who competes with other men for choice resources.

    The definition of a “sensible” risk that a man takes varies depending on the environment. However, no woman I’ve ever met prefers a timid man. Many “nice guy” type men behave TIMIDLY. They ask permission in various ways and way too much. They don’t set boundaries which allows others to disrespect them.
    This is not to be confused with showing good manners. I’m definitely not saying that a man should not have good manners. For certain types of us women, good manners are mandatory in a man, yet he still has to know when to be assertive. A man can be assertive or even aggressive and still have excellent manners. This may sound difficult to do but this is why some of this needs to be modeled.

    I’ve observed that some timid men will allow people to cheat them because they want to avoid confrontations. No woman I’ve ever known is going to respect that type of man. She does not feel safe and secure with him. She feels vulnerable. Even if he spends a lot of money on her and is the ultra Mr. Nice Guy with her, she’s still not going to feel safe with him.

    All of that being said, a man should train himself, if no one else has trained him, to be in the position to offer a reasonable amount of safety and security to a woman. He can observe other men doing this, if nothing else. There are of course lots of major and minor ways that a man SHOWS a woman that he can offer her that.

    Some women prefer big, muscular men who are willing to “throw down” or “bust a cap” in somebody for that reason, especially women who have had experiences or lived in savage environments where they’ve needed physical protection. However, many of us do not live and never lived in that kind of environment. Some of us like to think that we live among the more civilized. LOL! I say that with tongue in cheek because I do know that right beneath the veneer of being civilized lurks the savage in many of us.

    Anyway, SOME of us bw greatly prefer men who can flex their brain rather than their biceps. And if a man can flex his brain the majority of the time, he can PLAN to avoid many pitfalls/traps in life and won’t even need to flex his biceps barely at all.

    It is so hard for so many AAs to accept–that SOME bw want refined men who are brain flexers. It’s the men who excel at brain flexing who are at the top at any thriving socioeconomic level, group, society, culture, in the world. I’ve never lived among thugs, but I know that even the brain-flexing thugs rule the dumb thugs.

    We live in the Information (brain-flexing) Age–not the Industrial Age. This is a critical point for many AAs to grasp. Many AAs are stuck in the past and seem to think that it’s a conspiracy against AA men that the factory jobs that a lot of AA men used to have are pretty much dried up. Well, Duh! That’s because we NOW live in the Information Age. And in this AGE, the so-called geeky, nerdy or technologically savvy type of man who I call “smart” is on TOP and will remain on top throughout this age.

    These brainier men who are able to fluidly negotiate the customs of civilized society and secure a comfortable life is the type of man that I will encourage upwardly mobile bw to set their sights on. Many underexposed bw think of this type of man as weak or wimpy, or lacking in swagger, but that’s due to the underexposure of these women socially and their lack of knowledge in many ways. Many of these men know how to be assertive when necessary because they’ve seen it modeled.

    Also, this does NOT mean that a man or a woman or both have to be making a lot of money; it’s more of an art that is learned and practiced. I haven’t had a chance to go the the Art of Manliness site, but maybe this is what they discuss over there.

    • Evia,

      You said, “Khadija, I would think that by now there would be a bunch of books out there breaking it down to men that even though a woman may make as much money/more money than her man, the typical woman is still going to purr more with a man who makes her feel safer and more secure.”

      So many modern, fatherless AA males are so far out of touch with HUMAN norms (such as the above), that I’m beginning to doubt that any book-based explanations can break through their constellation of dysfunctions. I’m beginning to think that normal human male thought patterns and behavior can only be learned through intensive modeling; AND social rewards/punishments being administered by healthy men.

      You said, “Women, in general, are wired to want to be safe and secure just like men, in general, are wired to be sex hunters. In line with that, women, in general, are also wired to want the type of man who can best help them to feather the nest. I realize that some women haven’t accepted that men are sex hunters, but many men also seemingly can’t grasp that women are wired to gravitate toward men who make them feel more safe and secure. That’s our basic wiring that’s been embedded during the last 50,000 years.”

      Similar to the feigned “confusion” of many AA women NWNW opponents, I’m not entirely convinced that defective males genuinely don’t know this. These men live in a Western society where they see the effects of WM protecting and providing for WW and White children all around them. If nothing else, they saw WM PROTECT Taylor Swift from any further aggressive behavior from Kanye West.

      I get the feeling that it’s a combination of not wanting to know this, coupled with the inner knowledge that they’re incompetent to meet this standard in their current frame of mind. So, these failed men pretend not to know that protecting and providing are HUMAN male norms.

      You said, “Anyway, SOME of us bw greatly prefer men who can flex their brain rather than their biceps. And if a man can flex his brain the majority of the time, he can PLAN to avoid many pitfalls/traps in life and won’t even need to flex his biceps barely at all.”

      Well, duh, as you know—that’s what normal human women who are from normal, CIVILIZED environments generally want in a man. Normal, sensible women from civilized environments want the sort of man you described when you said, “These brainier men who are able to fluidly negotiate the customs of civilized society and secure a comfortable life is the type of man that I will encourage upwardly mobile bw to set their sights on. Many underexposed bw think of this type of man as weak or wimpy, or lacking in swagger, but that’s due to the underexposure of these women socially and their lack of knowledge in many ways. Many of these men know how to be assertive when necessary because they’ve seen it modeled.”

      Evia, I must admit that I find it extremely difficult to comprehend some of the bizarre conversations that go on among AAs about relationships and childrearing. The bizarre practices that we’ve normalized (oow, weekend-fathering, telephone-based fathering, etc.) are so far removed from basic human norms that it’s breathtaking. The nonsense spouted by the BW who are in opposition to NWNW was one example.

      I’ll also never forget another example a couple of years back at a Black-love/Black unity blog. A AA male commenter stated that he felt BW were being “programmed” to artificially want marriage; and asked somebody to explain what “real” value marriage has.

      I asked him to do the following thought experiment. To picture himself becoming homeless as a result of a Katrina-like emergency, or something that lasted longer such as The Great Depression. I asked him, among the following list persons, who would be most likely to feel some obligation to help him and take him in during such an emergency? And who would be most likely to feel obligated to help him over the long run?

      1-Total strangers?
      2-Neighbors?
      3-Work acquaintances?
      4-Friends?
      5-His jumpoff’s parents and extended family members?
      6-His casual girlfriend’s parents and extended family members?
      7-His baby mama’s parents and extended family members?
      8-His wife’s parents and extended family members?

      He didn’t have an answer. Over the years, I’ve been amazed by the numbers of AAs who don’t see the obvious connection between the mass AA refusal to form families and problems like homelessness among AAs, etc. We seem to expect others to create and fund endless government programs to accommodate our dysfunctions. It’s crazy. All of these various dysfunction-subsidizing programs need to be cut off. This would serve to get folks’ thinking in alignment with reality.

      The bottom line: Any AA woman who wants a good and decent life MUST step OUT of the toxic, savage, all-AA social environment and go amongst other people who are much more likely to model normal, human behaviors and interactions.

      Expect Success!

  22. Hodan says:

    another great post, but I loved the discussion even more. I truly appreciate you Khadija as well as Evia’s tremendous advice about what real ‘masculinity’ and ‘manhood’ is defined by and it surely not the thuggish criminal mentality the black culture often glamorizes in mainstream media/society.

    Some of the discussion reminds me of my brothers, younger one in particular. Without getting into details, he is always thinking about my mom’s well being, heck even mine, trying to connect me with excellent networks that will advance me professionally and financially. Your blog Khadija affirms my mom’s words, how you are raised and who raised you plays a key role in what kind of a man a boy grows up into. The measure of a man is not about his flashy look and hommies, rather its about the boundaries he sets for himself, taking care of his wife/children/family and being smart about it.

    • Hodan,

      Thank you for your kind words about the post; I truly appreciate it.

      You said, “Some of the discussion reminds me of my brothers, younger one in particular. Without getting into details, he is always thinking about my mom’s well being, heck even mine, trying to connect me with excellent networks that will advance me professionally and financially.”

      That’s what normal, protective, provider human men do for the women in their orbit.

      You said, “Your blog Khadija affirms my mom’s words, how you are raised and who raised you plays a key role in what kind of a man a boy grows up into.”

      Indeed. That’s why cultures and individuals that still have common sense steer their young women AWAY from men with negative family backgrounds such as: being born oow; fatherless; criminals in their family; substance abusers in their family; etc. As was discussed during the post at the previous blog about screening OUT fatherless men, a key question that old-school AA parents have about anybody their daughter is dating was “Who are his people?” When evaluating a man, you need to know what type of people molded him. A man is not an isolated island unto himself. He’s the sum total of all the key people who raised him. He’s also the sum total of all the empty spaces where certain key people—like his father—were supposed to be.

      Expect Success!

  23. CNS says:

    I just wanted to thank you for this link. As a women a who grew up without a (willing participate)father, I really appreciated this information. It gives my hope.Lol. Before I found this site I use to get so angry with(especially black) men who didn’t show any manners or common courtesy. I am glad to know that there are men out there that are great protectors, providers and gentlemen, and that I have a responsibility to vet better if I want a quality husband. Just a side note, I been wanting to share a funny story. I work with a typical “Nice Guy”, Player, Baby Daddy(of six)DBR BM. I guess he was trying to get a sympathetic response. He told me that when he went to pickup a new hire and his wife at the airport that the wife of the colleague had yielded and waited for him to open her car door. He said that he did open her car door but he didn’t appreciate her expecting this type of treatment from him. The couple are from India and I believe this may have been their first visit to the US. Would a real man be offend by this? I don’t think so. Well, I am a temp, dealing with a DBR in the workplace, so I was aware that I had to treat his inflated ego with tenderness and care(Ugh, Lol.)so I told him(a grown man of 44 years of age) that he did a good thing and that he may have made a favorable impression on this woman visiting from another country. I felt like I was talking to a 4 year old explaining the importance of being a gentleman. Shouldn’t he have learned this by now? Ugh. Like I said previously, before finding this site I was so angry with BM, but your site and others have given the necessary tools I need to know how to treat or response to these individuals. Thanks a bunch.

    • CNS,

      You’re welcome! Don’t waste your time or mental energy being angry with defective, damaged BM. They’re useless and irrelevant to anything that matters—including your quality of life. There’s a whole world filled with other men who are normal and healthy. Praise God! 🙂

      Don’t focus on the poison; what we focus on tends to expand in our lives. Instead, actively seek out good and worthy people, places, and experiences. They’re out there. More AA women simply have to RUN AWAY from toxic Black folks to find them.

      Expect Success!

  24. Truth P. says:

    I too will be reading the blog you mentioned.I thank you for sharing it with us Khadija.

    While reading the comments posted here about normal real men behaviors, in regards to how they protect women, I couldn’t help but to think of how in the BC most black men equate running from trouble as being a punk.I believe it was mentioned by another commenter at this site a while ago that in a lot of the tv shows you see with white men protecting women in some staged disastrous or dangerous situations you normally see them grabbing the chicks hands and running away as quick as possible.I also must mention that these crazy violent situations typically occur in a normally safe environments where no one would usually be or expect to be harmed in the first place.
    I think black boys and men began to take on the stay and fight/shoot mentality from living in toxic ghetto environments and never making plans to get out I guess.I feel some sympathy for some of them however if these boys/men had fathers who were providers and not just 1 or fixed income making moms or grandma’s perhaps they wouldn’t have to live in such hell holds and perhaps they wouldn’t feel the need to stay and fight/shoot.

    • TruthP.,

      You’re welcome!

      Here’s the thing: modern AA males generally DON’T know how to fight. What they do know how to do is to shoot guns, and gang up into a hyena pack to attack single individuals. They don’t know how to throw punches or fight like many AA men from previous generations. When many modern AA males are by themselves and without their guns, they end up like the BM who was punched out on a public transit bus by a (White) man in his 60s nicknamed “Epic Beard Man.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Transit_Bus_fight

      You said, “I believe it was mentioned by another commenter at this site a while ago that in a lot of the tv shows you see with white men protecting women in some staged disastrous or dangerous situations you normally see them grabbing the chicks hands and running away as quick as possible.I also must mention that these crazy violent situations typically occur in a normally safe environments where no one would usually be or expect to be harmed in the first place.”

      Oh yeah. Meanwhile, many AAs are dumb enough to celebrate behavior that we recognize as stupid in other contexts. For example, there’s a running AA insider joke about how White characters in horror movies are silly enough to go LOOKING for the monster. Well, that’s the SAME type of behavior that too many AAs from savage environments celebrate in real life—being foolish enough to go looking for a confrontation with somebody. Which is how so many AAs end up wounded, maimed, and killed over “You looked at me funny. You stepped on my toe” nonsense.

      Expect Success!

  25. Evia says:

    I’ll also never forget another example a couple of years back at a Black-love/Black unity blog. A AA male commenter stated that he felt BW were being “programmed” to artificially want marriage; and asked somebody to explain what “real” value marriage has.

    I asked him to do the following thought experiment. To picture himself becoming homeless as a result of a Katrina-like emergency, or something that lasted longer such as The Great Depression. I asked him, among the following list persons, who would be most likely to feel some obligation to help him and take him in during such an emergency? And who would be most likely to feel obligated to help him over the long run?

    1-Total strangers?
    2-Neighbors?
    3-Work acquaintances?
    4-Friends?
    5-His jumpoff’s parents and extended family members?
    6-His casual girlfriend’s parents and extended family members?
    7-His baby mama’s parents and extended family members?
    8-His wife’s parents and extended family members?

    He didn’t have an answer.

    Khadija, that simpleton AA man got an entire slab of history-of-the-human-race education in that one question you asked him. LOL!!!!!! You actually made a lot of headway towards civilizing that man with that one question. Questions are often more powerful than the answers.

    That reminded me of the type of question my grandmother used to ask me if I tried to complain that another child was bothering/picking on me. She would ask me, “What did YOU DO while that child was bothering you?

    Well, after being asked that question, a few times, I knew I had to DO something so that the other kid didn’t bother me. Also, the question empowered and emboldened me because it told me that I had the resources–the POWER–to protect myself and if I wasn’t using it, then I was the fool. And I sure did know how she despised fools!

    Over the years, I’ve been amazed by the numbers of AAs who don’t see the obvious connection between the mass AA refusal to form families and problems like homelessness among AAs, etc. We seem to expect others to create and fund endless government programs to accommodate our dysfunctions. It’s crazy. All of these various dysfunction-subsidizing programs need to be cut off. This would serve to get folks’ thinking in alignment with reality.

    Yep, it would be better to just cut the cord and that is happening. Even if these folks were my own children, I would say the same thing. I would not want my children crawling around deformed. It’s disgusting. It reminds me of a laboratory scene where there are all of these partially developed fetuses floating around tethered by umbilical cords to a monster.

    Well, our departed sister, Octavia Butler really called it when she wrote her series of “Parable of the Sower” novels. Of course, she called them fiction, but she KNEW they weren’t. She knew. And just like she knew, and just like we know, many others also know, and they’re PLANNING for the solution. However, I’m convinced that the reason they allow it to go on to this extent is because they want to be sure that their own people know that when and as they enact the solution, the liberals and other tenderhearted folks among them will know that there was no other choice.

  26. Oshun/Aphrodite says:

    Thank you Khadija,

    I know that this was geared towards men, but this has been very helpful for me. I was never at the extreme end of wanting thugs or hypermasculine men and I have been duped before by “self proclaimed nice guys” before, but I see now I still have a ways to go. I did have a good father, but he died when I was young – before I was able to consciously think about these things.

    Between this conversation and the conversation on Beyond B&W where some of the comments talked about how nonBM are nice (raised and culturally enforced) and how that general niceness can be confused for “actual love” when the bar is so low – I realize that I have more work to do. http://www.beyondblackwhite.com/question-of-the-week-i-told-him-i-love-him-now-crickets/

    These conversations have helped me to see that there are even more nuances in behavior. And I am slowly realizing that many more of the men in my family are damaged than I previously thought esp the ones under 50.

  27. Evia,

    You said, “Khadija, that simpleton AA man got an entire slab of history-of-the-human-race education in that one question you asked him. LOL!!!!!!

    {chuckling} Yep. I think I’ll call that question “The History of Human Survival.” {more chuckling}

    You said, “You actually made a lot of headway towards civilizing that man with that one question. Questions are often more powerful than the answers.”

    One can hope. {shaking my head} And yes, questions that prod people to work through finding their own answers are more powerful than quick answers supplied by somebody else.

    You said, “Well, our departed sister, Octavia Butler really called it when she wrote her series of “Parable of the Sower” novels. Of course, she called them fiction, but she KNEW they weren’t. She knew. And just like she knew, and just like we know, many others also know, and they’re PLANNING for the solution.”

    Oh yeah, she KNEW. We know. And, as you stated, other folks know and are quietly taking steps to resolve these issues once and for all.

    You said, “However, I’m convinced that the reason they allow it to go on to this extent is because they want to be sure that their own people know that when and as they enact the solution, the liberals and other tenderhearted folks among them will know that there was no other choice.”

    ITA. Evia, thanks for your insightful comments—this exchange we’ve had fits perfectly into my next post, and will be quoted there. Thanks!

    Expect Success!

  28. Oshun/Aphrodite says:

    I wanted to add that I have moved beyond the whole goldigger thing. That was challenging and took a long time for me to get that out of my system. I have to be vigilant because every now and then I will get an exposure inadvertently to that mess.

  29. LaJane Galt says:

    I recall on a particular blog an instance in which a young black male seriously questioned whether the consideration of a man’s financial status was-in fact- “goldiggerish”. This is a blog in which non-blacks frequently participate. They had no words for that. Not the Koreans, Indians, Mexicans…nobody.

    Similar to the feigned “confusion” of many AA women NWNW opponents, I’m not entirely convinced that defective males genuinely don’t know this. These men live in a Western society where they see the effects of WM protecting and providing for WW and White children all around them. If nothing else, they saw WM PROTECT Taylor Swift from any further aggressive behavior from Kanye West.

    I get the feeling that it’s a combination of not wanting to know this, coupled with the inner knowledge that they’re incompetent to meet this standard in their current frame of mind. So, these failed men pretend not to know that protecting and providing are HUMAN male norms.

    The understanding of protection was tainted by the ghost of Emmett Till. Kanye’s foolishness became a proxy for a historical stereotype, thus, many people could only see it this way. Those who did recognize that Kanye is an @sshat could only put it in terms of, “He wouldn’t do that to [black male rapper].” This dispute shouldn’t be whether people should be publicly humiliated, but what counts as humiliation and how it should be remedied.

    I also wonder if there is the unwelcome feeling that those who look like them truly are more dangerous than those who don’t.

    I’m STILL trying to wrap my head around the situation in which the old lady had to shoot the local delinquent to get him to stop. The utter helplessness and confusion the men displayed confounds and continues to shock me.

    http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/waod/2010/10/1/part-ii-future-for-black-women-old-women-vs-teenage-boys.html

    There are situations to be avoided completely, situations that require courage and are risky, and those that are harmful to the community and must be dealt with.

    It appears there is no discernment or effort to comprehend. At the same time, there are some very dangerous black men-who are phenotypically similar – yet antithetical to the well-being of black people.

    Any men care to comment on this? Why the inaction here? Why such a palliative response?

    • LaJaneGalt,

      You said, “Any men care to comment on this? Why the inaction here? Why such a palliative response?”

      I would prefer that you not try to have this sort of conversation here at this blog. I see it as a destructive waste of time. As far as I’m concerned, the “reasons” don’t matter. As I see it, the point is that the masses of AA men haven’t and aren’t going to protect or provide. Any AA woman who wants to survive and thrive needs to look elsewhere if she wants to be protected and provided for.

      Expect Success!

    • Oshun/Aphrodite says:

      Hello LaJane,

      “I recall on a particular blog an instance in which a young black male seriously questioned whether the consideration of a man’s financial status was-in fact- “goldiggerish”. This is a blog in which non-blacks frequently participate. They had no words for that. Not the Koreans, Indians, Mexicans…nobody.”

      If I interpret this correctly (that this BM had the impression that normal provision was golddigging) then this really shows how far off the mark the BC is. I have always been open to what has been said here and at other blogs and heeded the sage advice, but it is one thing to know it/mull over it intellectually, but then there are those instances/experiences that really drive it home emotionally.

      For example, the response to NWNW. I had been listening to Khadija and other bloggers warn about dysfunction and I could draw instances from my personal life and say ok- there was some dysfunctional experience here and there that confirmed what they were saying; but seeing it on a huge wide scale like NWNW drove it home emotionally for me.

      You can’t turn back from seeing something like. Its like the final nail in the coffin.

  30. Liza207 says:

    Hi Oshun/Aphrodite,

    You said: “I wanted to add that I have moved beyond the whole goldigger thing”.

    Would you mind clarifying for me? Do you mean that you felt like you were a gold-digger bacause you were expecting a man to provide for you? Or did you mean that the BC made you feel like a gold-digger because wanted this from a man? Thank you.

    • Oshun/Aphrodite says:

      Hello Liza!

      Well, both. This was one of the first things I had to work through a few years ago when I first started frequenting these blogs.

      My mother didn’t tell me much about men explicitly. She even stopped dating after my father died. So all the messages that I got about this came from my family and the people in the BC – the dating pool I was fishing in.

      I am sure that you have heard about young BGs and some BW who pay for dates, trips, loan money to men they are dating to help him out financially..etc well that was me.

      I am also sure that you have heard about BW who have bought their own engagement and wedding rings and who are the breadwinners in their families – well, that was where I was headed.

      Although my father took good care of my mother and I- my less functional extended family also supported this “anti-goldigger” meme. I mostly got and still get these messages from the BM in my family only, but the women in my extended family did nothing to refute/rebut.

      I adopted these behaviors because I didn’t want to be known as a golddigger. I felt I had to prove my use and worth to men and others by being “productive” and contributing all the time. To avoid the stigma of being lazy, unproductive, useless, a user.

      The good thing is that it made me ambitious. The bad thing was that the ambition was rooted in something negative that was overlayed onto my self concept.

      The frightening thing is that over the past few months my desires have changed and I find myself actually fantasizing about being a housewife and mother. I don’t know what happened. I care about my career, but its not as intense as it used to be and I feel kind of lost without that. The drive I had was a huge part of who I was and now I feel differently.

      • Karen says:

        Oshun,

        Please forgive me if I am taking too much of a leap here but based on what you just shared, I believe, that you are starting to lose the “scales” of having to prove anything and getting in touch with the true core person that it is you. I personally, think it is “WONDERFUL” **smile**.

        There is nothing wrong with not being intense about a career if your true self is more in tune with “nurturing”. To raise another lifeform to maturity to be a contributing member of society is just as worthwhile as a career. To make a house a home and a place of refuge in these challenging times is also no small accomplishment.

        Decent, kind, hardworking men, in my experience, want to protect and cherish their ladies. In return, we love and cherish them. It really is not so complicated when people are dealing in good faith and are being honest with each other.

        Anyway, if I am too far off base with my thoughts, please accept my humble apology.

        • Oshun/Aphrodite says:

          Thank you Karen for your kind and supportive response. 🙂

          I suppose you are correct, that is whats happening, but I am so anxious about it all and its all so different. 🙂

          I never pictured myself in that way – not that I am putting women down who do/have done that down; I encourage that for women who desire that, but I never really saw that as “for me”.

          I’ve intellectually engaged on blogs about marriage and took some baby steps towards dating, but I always envisioned myself as maybe half of a power couple – no children. That was the original fantasy.

          But recently, I have been having these daydreams about being a housewife and having multiple children. Thinking about what it would be like living and relating to my husband on a daily basis, how I would decorate my new home, wondering if my future husband would allow me to name our first son Jack after my grandfather, how would I educate my children.

          And it feels awkward and a little silly bc I haven’t gone there since I was 7 and making mock wedding invitations about boys I had crushes on.

          I have started a lot (multiple income streams) and I would like to see how some things turn out. I think I have the ability to do high quality work when I am focused, but the fire to be all do all all the time, is not there like it used to be.

      • Oshun/Aphrodite,

        I 100% cosign Karen’s reply to you. You are AS entitled as any nonblack woman on this planet to want to be a stay at home wife and mother. As Karen said, raising productive people is as important as any other contribution one could make to society and human progress.

        AA women are WOMEN. Just like women from other races and ethnic groups. We’re just as entitled as they are to want to be provided for and protected in the context of healthy, wholesome marriage and family life. That desire is the God-given birthright of every woman who wants that.

        Expect Success!

        • Oshun/Aphrodite says:

          Thank you Khadija! I think the more I hear/see this – the more I start to think about it in a more personal way instead of abstract terms. It has more emotional weight.

  31. Liza207 says:

    Oshun/Aphrodite,

    Thank you for taking the time to clarify.

    “I adopted these behaviors because I didn’t want to be known as a golddigger. I felt I had to prove my use and worth to men and others by being “productive” and contributing all the time. To avoid the stigma of being lazy, unproductive, useless, a user.”

    Gurl! I can definitely relate to this madness (and it is madness). That was me in my twenties. But I refused to give a guy any of my hard earned money. I didn’t ask them for anything and I didn’t give them anything, and I mean anything at all. And of course, I’m referring to BM I’ve dated in the past.

    “The frightening thing is that over the past few months my desires have changed and I find myself actually fantasizing about being a housewife and mother. I don’t know what happened. I care about my career, but its not as intense as it used to be and I feel kind of lost without that. The drive I had was a huge part of who I was and now I feel differently.”

    There is absolutely nothing to be frightened of. As a woman, you have the right to desire being a housewife and mother, if that is what you want and no one has the right to tell you otherwise. Why should those desires be okay for other races of women and not us?

    • Oshun/Aphrodite says:

      Hello Liza,

      No problem! I wish I was as half as smart as you were back then. I calculate sometimes in my head all the times I allowed myself to be made a fool of in this way and I know its in the 10s of thousands and I was barely on my feet. I didn’t want the stigma and I thought I was “helping” folks out.

      “I didn’t ask them for anything and I didn’t give them anything, and I mean anything at all. And of course, I’m referring to BM I’ve dated in the past. “

      This is another sticking point for me. I have been trying hard to dismantle and uproot all the stuff I picked up from dealing with BM and the BC before seriously getting back into dealing with nonBM. I realize I have made some major boo boos in dealing with the few nonB dates I had and so I have pulled back.

      I still have residual discomfort with receiving – being able to relax about the things that are volunteered. I guess I have a form of BC/BM PTSD to work through.

      Thank you Liza for saying that and for being so supportive!

  32. Oshun/Aphrodite says:

    @Khadija

    “So many modern, fatherless AA males are so far out of touch with HUMAN norms (such as the above), that I’m beginning to doubt that any book-based explanations can break through their constellation of dysfunctions. I’m beginning to think that normal human male thought patterns and behavior can only be learned through intensive modeling; AND social rewards/punishments being administered by healthy men.”

    I can agree with this. I did have a father and while my bar was not as low as others – its not where it should be. I am now realizing that being without a furthering of the extensive modeling and seeing the social rewards/punishments enforced by healthy men impacted me more than I realized.

    • Oshun/Aphrodite,

      As I’ve said before, the long-term solution is to stop taking in the many poisonous messages coming from AAs; and to start expanding one’s social networks outward and AWAY from the toxic all-AA social circles. More AA women need to position themselves to mingle with healthier, non-AA others. And leave the deranged masses of AAs behind.

      Expectn Success!

  33. Miss V says:

    I just had a chance to check out that Art of Manliness Website, and I’m hooked! There’s some posts that I’m going to have my son read. Thanks so much!!

  34. Miss V,

    You’re welcome! I’m also hooked on The Art of Manliness!
    _____________________________________________

    Oshun/Aphrodite,

    You said, “And it feels awkward and a little silly bc I haven’t gone there since I was 7 and making mock wedding invitations about boys I had crushes on.

    I have started a lot (multiple income streams) and I would like to see how some things turn out. I think I have the ability to do high quality work when I am focused, but the fire to be all do all all the time, is not there like it used to be.”

    Oshun, I’m so proud of you; and proud to know you! Developing the multiple income streams is a good, worthy, and necessary thing. {martial arts bow in salute} But freeing yourself to the point that you’ve been able to get back to your original, 7-year-old sense of possibility is absolutely HEROIC! 🙂 Most AA adults aren’t ever able to do that. [Which is a shame. :-(]

    Most children start off with a natural feeling of open possibilities. It’s the people around them and their environments that often twist and gradually destroy these childhood dreams. I know one (AA) woman whose jealous {jealous of a little girl}, hateful mother told her that she would never be able to become a judge, and that she should “think small.” {disgusted at the thought of a mother doing something that wretched and evil—I’m sure that particular deceased heifer is currently roasting in H*ll}

    Anyhoo, I would urge you to spend some more time revisiting 7-year-old Oshun’s daydream. Mentally “try it on,” and give that daydream some grown-up accessories. You’ll probably come up with an unexpected combination that’s exactly just right for you! {smile}

    Expect Success!

    • Oshun/Aphrodite says:

      Thank you Khadija! I feel the same way about you! You are one of the most clear and levelheaded women I have ever encountered. You have a special gift regarding wisdom and long term thinking and making it accessible to others. I want to thank you because you are/were very instrumental in these changes I have been making. I appreciate all the work you have done and are doing!

  35. pioneervalleywoman says:

    Oshun:

    I adopted these behaviors because I didn’t want to be known as a golddigger. I felt I had to prove my use and worth to men and others by being “productive” and contributing all the time. To avoid the stigma of being lazy, unproductive, useless, a user.

    The good thing is that it made me ambitious. The bad thing was that the ambition was rooted in something negative that was overlayed onto my self concept.

    My observations:

    So much of this comes, I believe, from (as others have implied here) BM who can’t fulfill those roles (or who don’t want to–they scorn men who do) and who thus criticize BW who would want to be taken care of. Some who scorn it are Sista Soldiers who are ready to argue a perspective that does not benefit themselves but which is really about catering to what BM want. It also comes from BW who see other women, black or not, having that kind of care and who scorn them out of envy or perverse pride, ie., “who does she think she is/she is like a little girl being taken care of/real women are strong, take care of themselves, etc.”

    On the other hand, there are some who argue against it and who argue from a legitimate perspective that women who stay home can become vulnerable because they have only one source of support. But many stay at home moms actually work part time, whether running businesses from home, as you suggest, or pursuing some other endeavor, as their children get older.

    • Liza207 says:

      Hi pioneervalleywoman,

      I have a cousin who got married a little over year ago to a Harvard educated attorney. According to her, he is the greatest thing since sliced bread (oh, please). I mentioned her a few months ago on Evia’s blog because she ceases very opportunity to put down my preference to date WM. We were having a conversation one day about stay-at-moms and when I said that I wanted to marry a man who had the means to support me, if I decided I no longer wanted to work. I mean, she absolutely lost it when I said this. LOL! From her reaction, I believe at that very moment she realized that she didn’t marry a man where she would have that option. She seems pretty unhappy with her job (VP). They both want children, so asked her would she be able to stay home with them and she lost it again. LOL!

      She seems to have less money now than, when she was single. How is that? I don’t let her get me but she seems really hell bent on getting to date BM, she does this by trying to fix me up with them. From what she says they’re well educated and successful but I tell repeatedly that I have no interest in them.

      From the way she reacts to my dating WM, I get the suspicion that secretly she wanted to marry a WM but she met this guy first. I think she’s insane.

      “But many stay at home moms actually work part time, whether running businesses from home, as you suggest, or pursuing some other endeavor, as their children get older.”

      I don’t want children but I would love to have the time to dedicate to starting my own business. So, having a husband that has the means to support us while I did this would be ideal.

    • Liza207 says:

      I meant to say: she would seize any opportunity…

    • Oshun/Aphrodite says:

      Thank you PVW. At the time I didn’t connect the dots as you laid it out. I think this is really in my extended family b/c now that I think of it none of the men under 40 have the capability to support their wives in that manner.

      It has really taken me so long to really get that a man could/should take care of his wife in that way. Or more specifically that I should be taken care of in that way. I can remember reading you share (thank you) about you and your husband, Evia and her husband and – it really took a minute for me to see myself in that situation.

      We have married couples (in my generation/family) for example who move back in with their parents the next day after the wedding. They go on to have children and everyone is in the house together. They eventually leave, but it seems unstable financially. There is no way I would go and live in my husband’s parent’s house. If it were that bad I would forgo a wedding to have a house and these people all had (debt financed) weddings.

      @Liza
      It looks like misery is demanding company.

      @Roslyn
      Thank you for sharing your story!

  36. I remember when I decided to stay at home with my son. I had taken three months maternity leave and I returned to work I had him in a very good daycare, but that type lifestyle just wasn’t what we wanted. We were constantly rushing about playing what we used to call: Baby, baby, who’s got the baby. It simply didn’t fit the way we lived. Anyway, when I told my supervisor who was a black woman she said she couldn’t imagine why anyone of my talent and intellect would want to waste it that way. (Keep in mind, she returned to work against doctor’s orders and almost lost twins. Near as I could tell she had a good husband with a good job, so I have no idea what her problem was.) Another black woman told me that I was being incredibly selfish. Selfish? To want to stay at home to take care of my own child? The narrative went that way pretty much all the way through. It was the best decision I ever made for our family. I have no desire to return to social work, and am making a decent income from my various revenue streams. The only issue I had was health care, and that’s been resolved now too. Bottom line is I have a very high quality of life with a husband who appreciates my efforts and is constantly telling my son about what a great wife and mother I am. I wish we had more money, but I am confident that will come in time, but I look at my son and my unbelievably happy husband and I know I made the right choice.

  37. Roslyn,

    You said, “I remember when I decided to stay at home with my son….Anyway, when I told my supervisor who was a black woman she said she couldn’t imagine why anyone of my talent and intellect would want to waste it that way. (Keep in mind, she returned to work against doctor’s orders and almost lost twins. Near as I could tell she had a good husband with a good job, so I have no idea what her problem was.) Another black woman told me that I was being incredibly selfish. Selfish? To want to stay at home to take care of my own child? The narrative went that way pretty much all the way through. It was the best decision I ever made for our family.”

    Guurl, these women’s crazy reactions are yet another example of how far OUTSIDE human norms the AA collective has strayed. {shaking my head}

    Expect Success!

  38. […] reminds me of an exchange I had with a defective, most likely fatherless Black male reader during a recent post: [Defective, Most-Likely Fatherless, Black Male […]